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Hi Guys

Thought I would introduce myself. I have been on the NDERF site for a few months now. I am extremely interested in this subject and the thought of something more for us when we die (or should that be pass on?)

All of these experiences are very similar, which often makes me wonder, are fake or real?

Just like any sceptic I'm trying to weight up each argument. Although the sceptic scientists believe its all to do with brain activity and the like there are some really positive evidence for that to be not the case.

Anyway, that's probably for a different thread.

Hope you see a lot more of me around. Very interested so please excuse me if I ask some silly questions.

From all the way in Scotland - David
David, welcome to the forums!
If you haven't experienced an NDE or STE of your own its easy to wonder or doubt. That isn't a bad thing, after all, you can't go believing everything at face value, not in this world in any case! Even those who have experienced one for themselves are sometimes left wondering if their NDE was real. Most experiencers say it was 'realler than real' though... Words like "This life is like a dream by comparison" and such.

If you are looking for seriously hard evidence you may want to focus your reading on "veridical experiences" that is, those with elements that can be objectively verified. Not all NDEs contain parts that can be verified like this but a good many do!

There's a very good book coming up that sums up this stuff. Its by a Dutch researcher. The English translation is being sponsored by IANDS and Ihear its well under way. I'll let this forum know when it hits the shelves. Many NDE books do contain some veridical accounts that have been verified by trusted researchers.

As to the archives here, I figure the consistency is very good. People of course use different words to describe what is often the same phenomenon. The patterns are the same. If there are fake accounts then the stories are so standard that they wouldn't sway the balance of the total body of accounts or their implications. There are just so many.

Anyhow, hope you enjoy your stay!
Welcome to the Forum David

David wrote: Very interested so please excuse me if I ask some silly questions.



No such thing as a silly question
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Welcome David from Idaho.

I was a skeptic till I had my NDE. And found out you really don't know what life is all about till you have
visited the other side and returned. Now every day & every simple thing I do is very special to me.
Hello David,

This is a great forum to learn, to converse, and to express your thoughts about this fascinating subject without feeling judged.

Welcome!
Glad you joined.
Natalie
Welcome David!

I think I have Scottish roots in there somewhere.
DavidMcA wrote: All of these experiences are very similar, which often makes me wonder, are fake or real?

Just like any sceptic I'm trying to weight up each argument. Although the sceptic scientists believe its all to do with brain activity and the like there are some really positive evidence for that to be not the case.


Fair question. From my non-expert perspective...

1. Judge the stories collectively for some sense of collaboration. Each story I've read is pretty unique, quite honest, often with a undertone of shock, surprise, puzzlement, and many times without awareness of other similar stories at the time of the event.

2. Judge the stories for some sense of "what is in it for the author". I can't imagine inventing the stories I've read, especially as many of them would have gotten the author tossed into a psych ward in a time where this stuff wasn't commonly recognized. Even now, these kind of stories are often ridiculed and dismissed by friends, families, doctors, etc. A few authors do sit down, write their stories out, and get paid for their books, of course.

3. Judge the stories as a vast collection of first-person testimonies. A few can be dismissed; but thousands of stories coming from a huge diversity of folks from around the world are hard to disallow in a court of judgment.

4. Judge the stories for beliefs and lives changed from the experiences. No one changes their entire world view overnight in profound ways unless confronted with very powerful information / experiences.

I still hold that everything that one believes comes down to a matter of faith. I mentioned an example of a NDE account to a university professor (a Christian with a faith background); he laughed and offered a rational "explanation". That amused me (a fellow Christian), because my (and his) Christian beliefs are every bit as laughable and subject to ridicule. I didn't argue with him much, because I think that when one has made a decision to not believe/accept an idea, that is as much a matter of faith as if he did accept the idea.

We can't "PROVE" that NDEs are real - but we can't "DISPROVE" them either. So it comes down to each of us to consider the information and testimonies at hand and then decide which side of the line we choose to stand on. Given the tone, the general consistency, the personal uniqueness, seeming honesty, etc. of all of the testimonies I've read, I've chosen to believe (most of) them. And also, I have a good friend who is brutally honest who had one, and doesn't talk about it (unless pinned down), doesn't profit from it, and won't read the accounts of others.
ccndr,
You make great points!
Fantastic Points made by all!


Thanks for the warm welcome :)
Welcome, David.

ccndr,
You mentioned that your friend does not read the accounts of others. I'm glad to hear that, as I do not like to read other accounts...thought I might be the only one.
My family and friends have given me many nde books over the years, they are all on the shelf, untouched. I did read one and wished I had not. I like to keep my account close to me and not muddy-it-up with other peoples thoughts. I think of my experience as a personal encounter. It is very precious to me.
ano1 wrote: Welcome, David.

ccndr,
You mentioned that your friend does not read the accounts of others. I'm glad to hear that, as I do not like to read other accounts...thought I might be the only one.
My family and friends have given me many nde books over the years, they are all on the shelf, untouched. I did read one and wished I had not. I like to keep my account close to me and not muddy-it-up with other peoples thoughts. I think of my experience as a personal encounter. It is very precious to me.



I'd love to hear of your experience. Have you posted it on the forum? If so Id love to be directed to the post.

Experiences do seem very personal so id understand if your wish not to share.
ccndr wrote: I still hold that everything that one believes comes down to a matter of faith.


I like your other points, but this one I don't get. Among other things, my NDE pretty much obliterated my beliefs and faith. And that was the cause of much of the confusion that ensued for a couple years following it, if not longer. Suddenly everything I had been taught and believed made no sense. In the face of an actual "transcendent" experience, my "faith" plain did not stand up, and became largely irrelevant.

Over time, as I have integrated the experience, this has become a rich source of empathy toward others. I genuinely feel sorry for them that they have to place such reliance on their faith. My NDE filled the void that faith was trying to fill.
Precaud wrote: I like your other points, but this one I don't get. Among other things, my NDE pretty much obliterated my beliefs and faith.


My thought on faith was directed towards the expression of skepticism about NDEs. Generically, my use of the word "faith" indicates a solid confidence in something that we cannot prove. A "know it, would bet my life on it, but can't prove it" kind of belief.

So, while being skeptical of all stories, I have a solid confidence (faith) that, on the whole, these experiences are real, yet I can't prove them. And, if you believe some philosophers, I can't truly prove much of anything else either!

Yet, skeptics (like my friend) go out on a limb and foolishly proclaim "Nonsense!" about things that they know little about. I suspect that you, on the other hand, have things that you KNOW about - but can't prove. So, whose side/story/argument will I agree with? Given the solid body of NDE testimony, etc., I'm betting that it actually takes MORE (misplaced) faith to ignore the facts and proclaim "I'm a skeptic and this is all nonsense". No, rather, I'm going to believe in something (testimonies of NDEs) I can't prove but still accept as reasonable - and that is faith to me. Because I stake my life every day on ideas that I have faith in but can't prove.

Yep - even skeptics have to base their positions in faith - because they CAN'T PROVE that you DIDN'T have the NDE.
Ah, ok, I misunderstood the context.

I was recently in a jacuzzi with mostly younger people, perhaps half my age. Fast-moving conversation that just touched on things. At one point the topic came to "long-term committed relationships". With no experiential basis, the thoughts thrown out by them were a mix of speculative, half-hearted, joking, mostly making light of it. I didn't find an opening to say anything before it moved on. One young woman, who was silent, made eye contact with me during this little scene, as if recognizing I might have something to offer from experience.

No matter how sincere, or what the context is, thinking can never encompass what experience gives. A rational observer is never going to be able to "grok" something by trying to reconstruct it in their mind. The feeling and body (sensing) aspects are missing. Perhaps it would be more useful to direct skeptics to set up a controlled experiment in which they start to lose their ordinary consciousness, what we call "fainting" or "passing out". That would give them some basis for their inquiry.
ccndr wrote:
Precaud wrote: I like your other points, but this one I don't get. Among other things, my NDE pretty much obliterated my beliefs and faith.


My thought on faith was directed towards the expression of skepticism about NDEs. Generically, my use of the word "faith" indicates a solid confidence in something that we cannot prove. A "know it, would bet my life on it, but can't prove it" kind of belief.

So, while being skeptical of all stories, I have a solid confidence (faith) that, on the whole, these experiences are real, yet I can't prove them. And, if you believe some philosophers, I can't truly prove much of anything else either!

Yet, skeptics (like my friend) go out on a limb and foolishly proclaim "Nonsense!" about things that they know little about. I suspect that you, on the other hand, have things that you KNOW about - but can't prove. So, whose side/story/argument will I agree with? Given the solid body of NDE testimony, etc., I'm betting that it actually takes MORE (misplaced) faith to ignore the facts and proclaim "I'm a skeptic and this is all nonsense". No, rather, I'm going to believe in something (testimonies of NDEs) I can't prove but still accept as reasonable - and that is faith to me. Because I stake my life every day on ideas that I have faith in but can't prove.

Yep - even skeptics have to base their positions in faith - because they CAN'T PROVE that you DIDN'T have the NDE.



my faith as we will call it, to me is really very simple

I am going to die ! that is a given

If I ignore what is talked about world wide and pretend there is nothing after death , and then I die
and find out I was wrong

Then it was my loss while I was here

If I find out I was right and there is nothing after I die , well then it wont matter as I will be dead and I will never know anyway

I also know that I won't win the lottery if I don't buy a ticket That is a given

But if I do buy one I might be lucky and win but not if I don't buy a ticket

My faith that there is more to come , is my ticket out of here !
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Precaud wrote: Perhaps it would be more useful to direct skeptics to set up a controlled experiment in which they start to lose their ordinary consciousness, what we call "fainting" or "passing out". That would give them some basis for their inquiry.

This can be arranged; however, doing this might piss or scare some folks off. :D

Actually, Robert Monroe (Monroe Institute) did set up such an experiment. I'm actually puzzling through his material now, comparing it to the NDE stories. Still trying to connect lots of dots... What I've studied so far scares the crap out of me, because (1) it appears to be the real thing. Or else (2) I'm gullible. But I'm sticking with the first one for now.

One problem is that folks often go straight from being skeptical to claiming that something is dangerous or evil. While still claiming skepticism. My position is that these folks are operating on just as much faith as anyone, because they can't prove their negative assertions any more than someone like you can positively prove your experience.
Scared off, perhaps. Pissed off, I don't see how or why. But perhaps I'm naive.

I guess my point is, there's only so much one can say to a skeptic. Whether for or against, being stuck with belief is a handicap to understanding. Something has to happen to take it out of the realm of opinion. This is not so easy with NDE... ;)
To me a skeptic is someone who doesn,t want to open their mind to a new posibillity

their loss I guess
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