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Out-of-Body Experience
28 posts Page 1 of 1
I apologize at the start for the length of this post, I think it's appropriate material but a bit outside the norm for this forum, so I'm "testing the waters" of interest/receptivity, and thought I should do some table-setting to qualify it properly before telling the story.

I've been studying astrology since about a year after my NDE in 1971. Not tabloid junk, but serious astro-cosmology. It was frankly the first thing I encountered that really helped me make sense of some of what I had experienced. I was very fortunate back then to make the acquaintance of a very skilled and versatile astrologer, well-versed in history, astronomy, math, and world religions, who made real attempts to keep abreast with developments in psychology and science, and who was a great story-teller to boot.

It was the beginning of a transition away from a world view consisting of a mix of Bible-centric ideology, the human-ego-centric view of the world characteristic of 1960's American culture, and toward one of a more "unified field" of creation and a living, breathing universe that I "appeared in" at birth.

I've been prone to fainting, passing out, and OBE's on a pretty irregular basis since I was a child. Docs told me it was due to low blood pressure. I've learned to avoid the triggers (abrupt transitions from hot to cold is the biggy - no cold dips after a sauna for me!), or exploit them when desired to obtain the wonderful reset-button "psychic energy flush" that results when I "take it to the edge" and then back off. It takes some getting used to, but it's like a mini-replica of my encounter with the Light Being in my NDE.

Fast forward to Friday (a couple days ago). After a normal morning at work, I finished my commitments by noon, had a leisurely couple of hours at home, and then ran a few errands on the way to the health club for my every-other-day workout. The wall clock read 3:50pm as I entered the locker room to change into gym clothes. Chatted with a couple of the guys for a while, all was fine and normal. As I walked the couple hundred feet to the main workout room, I felt a little woozy turning a corner, and had to steady myself with a hand on the wall, but thought nothing of it.

The workout room was fairly busy, about 2/3 full. I picked out the nearest empty elliptical trainer machine, and started my customary set of stretches before getting on it. On the first move down, everything started swimming, I lost my balance and fell into the machine next to me. This is odd, I thought; I felt fine, I'll just work my way through it. Got up, righted my body, but could not stop the room from swimming. Tried another downward stretch, and lost it. Body fell onto the floor, and for a while I was caught between letting go into the experience, feeling self-conscious about being around a bunch of people in a semi-public space, and that familiar resistance/tension that happens when the waking consciousness is extracting from a full waking state. Someone touched me and asked "Are you ok, do you need help, should I call an ambulance?" It focused my mind and brought me back and at that point I clearly realized I HAD to stay present and in my body no matter what; this was no place to "let go". The memory briefly flashed through me of the guy who had passed out after exiting the steam room a few years ago, the club wants no responsibility for such things, acts quickly, and the paramedics arrive in a matter of minutes (at great cost to the faintor) whether they are needed or not.

I opened my eyes, saw a young man kneeling next to me, and answered, no, I'm ok, just let me lie here for a moment and gather myself. He said ok, then turned and told someone to get one of the lifeguards in here. For the next couple minutes we chatted about what happened, during which I pretended that I didn't know what happened, no I'm not prone to this sort of thing, maybe it's something I ate that didn't agree with me, yep it sure is odd, safe smalltalk. Stuff that would not ruffle any of the young man's feathers or cause alarm.

The lifeguard arrived, we decided I should move into the locker room and lay down there. Slowly got up, still quite woozy, thanked the guy who helped me, and walked at snails pace while leaning on the lifeguard's shoulder and one hand on the wall for balance. Arrived at the couch, he went and got a more comfortable pillow and bottle of water, said he'd check on me every few minutes, which he indeed did. What a trooper. I laid there, alternating between being present with my "state of awareness", the feeling of an "illumined presence", and trying to focus and channel whatever energy I could to loved ones. After a while I tried sitting up to see if I felt stable. Nope. It took several tries and about 90 minutes before I could sit and the room wasn't moving. I then found I could walk if I moved slowly with a wall for support, so I went in to the shower room, took a long shower hoping it would ground me, and started feeling a bit more stable.

After that, I knew that I could drive home safely as long as I could walk to the car, so that was the goal. And it worked. All the while feeling spacey and out of place. Arrived safely home.
----------------------------
That's enough of the experience. Next day I realized, I know the time when this started within a few minutes, and it would be very interesting to see what the planetary setup was at that time, and in conjunction with my natal chart. I've never seen the astrological chart of an OBE event, so there was perhaps something to learn from it. My expectation would be that Neptune, the Moon, and Saturn would be strong factors, and indeed that was the case. This isn't an astrology forum so I won't get into details unless there's interest, but I've attached it for anyone who might be interested.

5aug16.jpg
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Thanks for taking the time to provide such an in-depth description of this experience, Precaud. I must admit I know almost nothing about real serious astrology, but the fact that your expectations that Neptune, the Moon and Saturn would be strong factors at the time is really intriguing. Is there any way you think you can apply your knowledge and passion in this field to expand people’s understanding of these experiences, such as by conducting surveys for instance? Would further analyses such the one you have just conducted enable you to add to the list of trigger factors you mentioned?
Hello from Italy - How I found out about NDERF - A Strange Experience
Thanks for your interest, Giulia. I can see you have the mind of a good researcher! :)

Your idea is a great one. The challenge, of course, is going to be data collection, and data integrity. How does one conduct such a survey? One would need to collect accurate time of occurrence, accurate description, and accurate time of birth data. And second, I think one must be able somehow to validate the data. This sort of thing would attract all sorts of crackpots who would fabricate events just to participate. (I know a couple of such people...)

That said, my mind is working along very similar lines. Research of this kind could have implications into many different areas. I realized several of them this morning: This could explain how so-called "wormholes" form, how they can selectively extract one person's consciousness while leaving others nearby completely unaffected; How tribal leaders, "medicine men", "spiritual guides", etc. can enter altered states just by being at the right place at the right time that corresponds to their natal planetary formation; And I see it as another line of explaining why the whole concept of reincarnation is unnecessary. And some others I can't mention yet.
Precaud wrote: This could explain how so-called "wormholes" form, how they can selectively extract one person's consciousness while leaving others nearby completely unaffected; How tribal leaders, "medicine men", "spiritual guides", etc. can enter altered states just by being at the right place at the right time that corresponds to their natal planetary formation; And I see it as another line of explaining why the whole concept of reincarnation is unnecessary. And some others I can't mention yet.


Hi, Precaud! Thanks for your feedback about the implications of this study. I happen to be up at dawn because I will be disappearing for a brief vacation in 24 hours' time, but I am now even more intrigued and would be happy to volunteer for the analysis of a genuine event (I promise) for which I have evidence of exact location, date, starting time and ending time (that's recorded on my iPhone), along with astrological details. Also I would be very interested in hearing about an explanation of why the whole concept of reincarnation is unnecessary (I have my own). If you have time to look into it, I'd be happy to PM the data to you.
Hello from Italy - How I found out about NDERF - A Strange Experience
Hi Giulia,
I hope you were able to get back to sleep... :)

It's great that you have the data for an OBE! Yes, please send it via PM. (For these purposes, I don't need the time for when it ended, though.)
For your birth, and for the OBE, we need:
Date, local time, location (either city or long-lat coordinates is fine), and if any "daylight savings" scheme was in effect at the time.
You can send a description of the event later if that works best for you.

As for reincarnation, I would only start by saying, I see no evidence of it in any other of nature's manifestations. But I see plenty of recycling. But let's save that discussion for another time. Please enjoy your vacation!
Hi Pracaud,

I am absolutely no expert in astrology though it fascinates me without end. Just as much as looking out, it fascinated me to look in, into DNA etc. (again here I am no biophysicist) but to hear talk of “wormholes” existing at the heart of creation on all fractal levels is awe-inspiring! With astrology what particular grabs my attention are correlations with biorhythms (some people feel this is a pseudoscience) and biodynamic agriculture. Like civilisations in China, India and Ancient Near East, Mesoamerican cultures utilised an astrology which was deeply ingrained into their everyday lives and would be utilised for everything from farming to reproduction to “connecting with the gods” through altered states of consciousness and ceremonies. I am no expert into Mesoamerican astrological systems - I’m sure you know far more than me - , but I have worked with Mayans from Guatemala who are experts in these ancestral understandings, of the logic of the skies. The combination of the Haab and the Tzolkin Counts, directed daily activities and decisions according to the day one was born on. The 260-day cycle (Tzolkin) had no relationship with seasons and was used for sacred rites and divinatory purposes. So your suggestion is quite likely:

Precaud wrote: ...How tribal leaders, "medicine men", "spiritual guides", etc. can enter altered states just by being at the right place at the right time that corresponds to their natal planetary formation...


What I have gleaned in my understanding is that energetic influences of the cosmos are far greater that just the very basic “linear” understanding of 'solar rays'; there are cosmic alignments which create effects on “individual” human beings and also perhaps galactic alignments which effect whole species, presumably even an entire biosphere?
Hi mbee,

Yes, astrology in one form or another has been at the heart of organizing our inner and outer lives, perhaps since the beginning of civilizations. I would add all major world religions to the list; behind their symbolism, they're all astro-theologies.

I am not a scholar and have not made a point to study all systems in depth. That's particularly true of the Chinese and Mesoamerican systems, which in many respects are isolated cases and quite different from the "Western" system, which evolved over a large geographical area, in multiple cultures, and in parallel with developing natural sciences, mathematics, philosophy, etc.. But they are fascinating, for sure. The Mayan system, in particular, appears to have appeared intact and whole and not developed over time.

One of the beauties of astrology is that it encourages that we think less linearly and more in terms of cycles, concentricity, and relativity; to recognize and work more with with cyclic patterns and resonant interactions and less with intersecting lines. And from that POV, so-called "cosmic alignments" become much more apparent and natural occurrences. Still speculative, perhaps, but a better-informed speculation. :)
“As above, so below, as within, so without, as the universe, so the soul…” - Hermes Trismegistus

You are very right Pracuad, all things are cyclic. This is one way in which divination is made possible. All of nature works on this principle.

Though I must say it is interesting to see how astro-theologies and cosmologies have been used in empowering and some in disempowering societies.

So much of what modern Western science is bringing into the limelight now has been said and repeated in cosmologies from some of the world’s oldest societies.

What fascinated me is how our true coordinates in the cyclic nature of creation, have been moved about in Western astronomy. From Cyclic, to flat, to geocentric, to up and out and intersecting lines, like you mentioned etc. we are slowly breaking away from linear thought and back into cyclic but with this we are re-orientating ourselves. So in a slightly suspended state it seems, we are each in search for our true sun, our centre or North star.

What Indigenous people (NDErs, and many many other schools of thought in search of our true nature) are sharing at this time is the importance of connecting with the heart and re-establigh a harmonious balance between head and heart - the centre of our inner galaxy on this fractal level. In “life” we are tricked into believing we are not that “sun”. We are separated and on a separate object, we believe we are that object, that body, but really we ARE still that “sun” its the riddle of our being. The illusion is what is “seen” through our lens of perception but we are not THAT.

“The one you are looking for is the one who is looking” - St. Francis of Assisi
mbee wrote: What fascinated me is how our true coordinates in the cyclic nature of creation, have been moved about in Western astronomy. From Cyclic, to flat, to geocentric, to up and out and intersecting lines, like you mentioned etc. we are slowly breaking away from linear thought and back into cyclic but with this we are re-orientating ourselves. So in a slightly suspended state it seems, we are each in search for our true sun, our centre or North star.


Well alot of this has been made possible along the way by scientific advances. I don't know how much time you spend under the stars, but if our entire view of the night sky is formed without the aid of optics, as it was prior to Galileo, then I'm surprised that they did as well as they did. And, to be fair, I am not going to be dropping "linear thinking" anytime soon; it's very useful for a great number of things. Everything in its place!

What Indigenous people (NDErs, and many many other schools of thought in search of our true nature) are sharing at this time is the importance of connecting with the heart and re-establigh a harmonious balance between head and heart - the centre of our inner galaxy on this fractal level. In “life” we are tricked into believing we are not that “sun”. We are separated and on a separate object, we believe we are that object, that body, but really we ARE still that “sun” its the riddle of our being. The illusion is what is “seen” through our lens of perception but we are not THAT.


Well said.
Optics became a major influence in many areas of our culture, this is very true, myself I have an art and film background. Its just it seemed to become, in many of it’s uses, exclusive and dismissive of other modes of seeing creation and blinded us from what was so apparent. It threw in doubt instead of complimenting our understanding of life. Personally I tend to be drawn to out-of-the-box thinking, and often I get suspicious of what we have been and still are fed.
I have no idea, for instance, how the Dogon of Mali West Africa, knew of the stars surrounding Sirius and their orbits as well as other astronomical details without the use of any instruments. There is so much controversy surrounding this story. But looking at it from the perspective of how indigenous cultures related to life, it is clear they had other means accessible to them through ceremony such as OBEs and NDEs etc. which were far more real than the dream of waking life.

Yes you are right that there is no way to not include linear thinking, it is also a perspective, a limited one, but one that exists, naturally, and has its place.

sorry if I have diverted your thread by the way. Its nice to talk about these things with someone who watches the skies! thank you :)
Yes, it is nice, but quite a diversion, as you say. Perhaps start a new thread so this one stays on track?
okay Precaud, fair enough :)
thank you
Precaud wrote: Hi Giulia,
For your birth, and for the OBE, we need:
Date, local time, location (either city or long-lat coordinates is fine), and if any "daylight savings" scheme was in effect at the time.


Hi, Precaud!

Thanks for your interest!

I am trying to get hold of the information you asked for. I had already obtained longitude and latitude for the event. It is taking a bit longer to find out about birth, as it is a large town and the place itself seems to have been turned into a museum around 16 years ago.

In the meantime, I have been researching about the possibility that longitude and latitude may change over time, but, based on what I have found, the shift seems to be irrelevant in our case. Is this correct?
Hello from Italy - How I found out about NDERF - A Strange Experience
Giulia wrote:
Precaud wrote: Hi Giulia,
For your birth, and for the OBE, we need:
Date, local time, location (either city or long-lat coordinates is fine), and if any "daylight savings" scheme was in effect at the time.


I am trying to get hold of the information you asked for. I had already obtained longitude and latitude for the event. It is taking a bit longer to find out about birth, as it is a large town and the place itself seems to have been turned into a museum around 16 years ago.


Hi Giulia, I hope you had a refreshing vacation! I'm a little jealous, as I haven't had one in years :(

Thanks for your efforts, but the name of the town will probably suffice; I have access to a database that includes Italy and has quite a few entries. Failing that, even deriving the long/lat from a map will be good enough for these purposes.

In the meantime, I have been researching about the possibility that longitude and latitude may change over time, but, based on what I have found, the shift seems to be irrelevant in our case. Is this correct?


Yeah, pretty much irrelevant, especially within our lifetime.

(So, I take it from your comments that you've never had your chart drawn up? :o That's like navigating without a map! :D )
Precaud wrote: Hi Giulia, I hope you had a refreshing vacation! I'm a little jealous, as I haven't had one in years :(


Thanks, Precaud. I did. Mine was the first one in years, in fact! I do hope it’s your turn next time :)

I have sent you the details you asked for and look forward to hearing about the outcome, eventually.

Precaud wrote: (So, I take it from your comments that you've never had your chart drawn up? :o That's like navigating without a map! :D )


To be honest... no! I guess I am the Columbus sort of person, you know, striving to find new lands that are not on the map. But here is an interesting synchronicity. I had an unusual dream this morning, before reading your post, which I was going to write down in my diary: it was a Winnie-the-Pooh sort of map with a number of (not really) hidden treasures to be hunted for.

P.S. I eventually found the place where I was born, and sent you the Google Maps link. I am quite sure you can extract the longitude/latitude details from that. I am hopeless!
Hello from Italy - How I found out about NDERF - A Strange Experience
Precaud wrote: For your birth, and for the OBE, we need:
Date, local time, location (either city or long-lat coordinates is fine), and if any "daylight savings" scheme was in effect at the time.


Hi, Precaud!

Thanks once again for your work on this project.

I am not sure whether this question applies here, but does DNA have any relevance for Astrology? What I mean is: does birth location latitude and longitude, date and local time suffice to put together a natal chart?
Hello from Italy - How I found out about NDERF - A Strange Experience
Giulia wrote:
Precaud wrote: For your birth, and for the OBE, we need:
Date, local time, location (either city or long-lat coordinates is fine), and if any "daylight savings" scheme was in effect at the time.


I am not sure whether this question applies here, but does DNA have any relevance for Astrology? What I mean is: does birth location latitude and longitude, date and local time suffice to put together a natal chart?


Thanks for your kind words, Giulia. The DNA question is very interesting. I am unaware of any studies that would seek to uncover a connection/influence. My hunch is, it would take a substantial knowledge of both disciplines to undertake it and produce useful results. If so, the results would be fascinating to learn about.

Yes, those are the only data points required to put together a natal chart. Interpretation is a another matter.

In psychology and psychotherapy, a major ongoing theme is the "nature versus nurture" debate. Which (or to what extent) tendencies reflect a person's inherent qualities, and which ones are programmed into them by their environmental influences (family, society, early life conditions, education, maybe even time spent in the womb, etc.).

Astrology is relatively blind to all of those "nurture" elements, though it can show which areas a person is most sensitive or vulnerable to. A chart can't tell whether the person was born into a slum or a castle; into the hands of educated, creative, well-balanced parents, or the result of a one-night-stand and abandoned after birth; into a pagan, atheistic, or devoutly religious family. So I look at astrology as a detailed map of "who we are" before the influences got their hands on us and started forging our destiny. It reflects our "essential nature" that many of us spend much of our lives working to recover.

This point of view does break down at a certain point. As we mature and grow and our identity expands beyond body, personality, family, clan, nation, all of which play a major role in the "nurture" part of the equation, it is only one more step into more holistic viewpoints (humanitary/species, planetary, solar, extra-solar {other sun systems}, and in the extreme, galactic). And after that step, we are more at-one with life, and the nature/nurture distinction breaks down. But for the developmental part of a person's life, for self-knowledge and integration, it can be very useful, and quite precise. Excepting perhaps DNA, astrology is the only map we have of its type.
Precaud wrote: The DNA question is very interesting. I am unaware of any studies that would seek to uncover a connection/influence. My hunch is, it would take a substantial knowledge of both disciplines to undertake it and produce useful results. If so, the results would be fascinating to learn about.

Yes, those are the only data points required to put together a natal chart. Interpretation is a another matter.

In psychology and psychotherapy, a major ongoing theme is the "nature versus nurture" debate. Which (or to what extent) tendencies reflect a person's inherent qualities, and which ones are programmed into them by their environmental influences (family, society, early life conditions, education, maybe even time spent in the womb, etc.).

Astrology is relatively blind to all of those "nurture" elements, though it can show which areas a person is most sensitive or vulnerable to. A chart can't tell whether the person was born into a slum or a castle; into the hands of educated, creative, well-balanced parents, or the result of a one-night-stand and abandoned after birth; into a pagan, atheistic, or devoutly religious family. So I look at astrology as a detailed map of "who we are" before the influences got their hands on us and started forging our destiny. It reflects our "essential nature" that many of us spend much of our lives working to recover.

This point of view does break down at a certain point. As we mature and grow and our identity expands beyond body, personality, family, clan, nation, all of which play a major role in the "nurture" part of the equation, it is only one more step into more holistic viewpoints (humanitary/species, planetary, solar, extra-solar {other sun systems}, and in the extreme, galactic). And after that step, we are more at-one with life, and the nature/nurture distinction breaks down. But for the developmental part of a person's life, for self-knowledge and integration, it can be very useful, and quite precise. Excepting perhaps DNA, astrology is the only map we have of its type.


Thanks for taking the time to explain all this, Precaud. The reasons I wondered was because I was trying to understand where this research could lead you, OBEs and NDEs still being a relatively grey area for science.

For instance, does astrology have a definition for what an OBE or a NDE are? Would your research results help astrology and science provide a definition? Is wormholes the word you would use?

Reincarnationists and some NDErs may state that we choose our “nurture” elements but then forget about them, as forgetting is part of the game.

Maybe I am just asking the same question again, but would being given just part of the map be part of a galactic experiment or is there much more than that which meets the eye, in your opinion?

For instance, where does “interpretation” come from? Does astrology have a definition for that?

I realise you did mention a number of possible implications of these results to start with, when you said

Precaud wrote: Research of this kind could have implications into many different areas. I realized several of them this morning: This could explain how so-called "wormholes" form, how they can selectively extract one person's consciousness while leaving others nearby completely unaffected; How tribal leaders, "medicine men", "spiritual guides", etc. can enter altered states just by being at the right place at the right time that corresponds to their natal planetary formation; And I see it as another line of explaining why the whole concept of reincarnation is unnecessary. And some others I can't mention yet.


but I also realise this research has only just started and it may be pointless to ask too many questions, for the time being.

Lastly, I meant to ask you, when you have time, if you could tell us more about OBEs while awake in a dedicated topic. Personally, I have never had one, and I would love to hear more about the subject.
Hello from Italy - How I found out about NDERF - A Strange Experience
My apologies for the delayed reply, life has been fast-moving and it's been challenging to "keep up" lately.
Giulia wrote: does astrology have a definition for what an OBE or a NDE are? Would your research results help astrology and science provide a definition? Is wormholes the word you would use?

I am unaware of astrology having a definition for OBE or NDE. I suppose you could say that the study I am starting could bring one about; the elements involved are quite consistent thus far. Since science rejects astrology out of hand, I doubt it would accept any definition that evolves from it. The idea about "wormholes" was only to point out a possible correlation with OBE's in the way they occur.
Reincarnationists and some NDErs may state that we choose our “nurture” elements but then forget about them, as forgetting is part of the game.

It's an interesting theory, one quite popular in "new-age" circles. I know quite a few people who "believe" it. I wish they took ownership of their day-to-day words and actions as readily as they are eager to take responsibility for their (supposed) choices prior to birth!
Maybe I am just asking the same question again, but would being given just part of the map be part of a galactic experiment or is there much more than that which meets the eye, in your opinion?

If I understand what you mean by "being given just part of the map", there's always room for individual self-determination, no? So-called "free will"? But I definitely agree with the "more than meets the eye" part. That Creation is very large, humanity's place in it is relatively small, and an individual human's place is even smaller.

So, where do we find this "more than meets the eye" that you refer to? For me, it is in the relation of a human being to the larger/higher beings in which it is immersed and makes it's life; that is where much of it is to be seen. But it takes an uncommon measure of self-honesty, humility, and sense of proportion to "see it". Rigid egos attached to hyperactive personalities claim everything for themselves and make up pretty warped views of things.

Here's a related question for you: If a "higher being" is working through you, then who "owns" it? Who bears responsibility? And who bears the consequences, if any?
For instance, where does “interpretation” come from? Does astrology have a definition for that?

I don't understand the question, can you clarify?
I realise you did mention a number of possible implications of these results to start with, when you said
Precaud wrote: Research of this kind could have implications into many different areas. I realized several of them this morning: This could explain how so-called "wormholes" form, how they can selectively extract one person's consciousness while leaving others nearby completely unaffected; How tribal leaders, "medicine men", "spiritual guides", etc. can enter altered states just by being at the right place at the right time that corresponds to their natal planetary formation; And I see it as another line of explaining why the whole concept of reincarnation is unnecessary. And some others I can't mention yet.

but I also realise this research has only just started and it may be pointless to ask too many questions, for the time being.

Yeah, that was the mind racing way too far ahead, as it loves to do, making connections and seeing possibilities that will take years of work and effort to manifest in the more tangible realms.
Lastly, I meant to ask you, when you have time, if you could tell us more about OBEs while awake in a dedicated topic. Personally, I have never had one, and I would love to hear more about the subject.

I would be glad to introduce the topic at a later date. I suspect it will raise more questions than answers. I am very much in favor of "re-defining" what an OBE is.
Hi, Precaud.

Thanks for your in-depth explanations and apologies for taking so long to reply.

You said:

Precaud wrote: I am unaware of astrology having a definition for OBE or NDE. I suppose you could say that the study I am starting could bring one about; the elements involved are quite consistent thus far. Since science rejects astrology out of hand, I doubt it would accept any definition that evolves from it. The idea about "wormholes" was only to point out a possible correlation with OBE's in the way they occur.


Thanks for explaining this. What dawned on me was the idea that participants in your study might need from you a suggestion of what an OBE is in order to understand what the research is about.

Since we have already found there are two types of OBEs, one occurring while the body is asleep (the one I personally call “mind awake - body asleep”) and one occurring while awake (such as those you report, and such as those that are reported in the first part of so many NDEs), I thought it might be helpful to define what these experiences are and what they have in common, assuming they have something in common.

Precaud wrote:
Giulia wrote: For instance, where does “interpretation” come from? Does astrology have a definition for that?

I don't understand the question, can you clarify?


The reason I asked is because, when you said that all you need to put together a natal chart are date, local time, location (either city or long-lat coordinates), and any daylight savings scheme that was in effect at the time, you added

Precaud wrote: Interpretation is a another matter.


I was wondering where interpretation comes from. I guess it comes from the Astrologer, but the term itself seems to suggest there is an intuitive component involved. I was just wondering whether, in addition to an Astrologer’s knowledge of the various fields involved in Astrology, a personal intuitive component is thought to be involved, and, should this be the case, where do you think it comes from. Could interpretation be what causes science to reject Astrology out of hand? Is interpretation not objective enough for science?

Precaud wrote: I am very much in favor of "re-defining" what an OBE is.


Yes, that’s probably the reason why I suggested you provided a working definition of OBEs.
Hello from Italy - How I found out about NDERF - A Strange Experience
Lets please not revere astrology!

I have followed that system and am rather good at intuitive reads....but it is just another system to buy into.

By that i mean you limit your world by its rules. Suddenly what you want to believe...is the reality of what happens.

The only astrology i do find useful these days is the astrologyof the moment....so called horary astrology. Only because its more fun to see energy being used in the workd and less limiting personally.

I have never found that astrology can explain any OBE or other mediatation stuff. Thank god because i would then effectively have limited myself with my own hand..so to speak.

What you believe rules. Chose your stick wisely! But it is a stick....
autumn wrote: Lets please not revere astrology!
I have followed that system

And let's not pretend that 'astrology' is one thing, all and the same everywhere and in every practitioner's hands. There is no "that system" that you refer to, unless it is the junk astrology found in the back pages of tabloids and such.

I have never found that astrology can explain any OBE or other mediatation stuff.

Which is just a way of saying; you've never made more than a casual effort, but will pass judgement on it nevertheless.

You are right in saying, it's just a tool. And like any tool, its efficacy depends entirely on the skill of the user.

Please help keep this thread on track and allow interested participants to continue without having to defend the territory.
Precaud wrote: Please help keep this thread on track and allow interested participants to continue without having to defend the territory.


Hi, Precaud. Nice to see you around. I posted a question in this thread for you on 9 September and never heard back from you. I'd love to hear about waking OBEs when you have time.

:F
Hello from Italy - How I found out about NDERF - A Strange Experience
Giulia wrote: Hi, Precaud. Nice to see you around. I posted a question in this thread for you on 9 September and never heard back from you. I'd love to hear about waking OBEs when you have time.

Hi Giulia, I was going to write "I don't know how I missed your post". But I looked back on the calendar and saw it coincided with a family emergency that kept me occupied and distracted for a week or more. Sorry for dropping the ball.

You ask some very good questions, challenging to answer. I honestly haven't given this matter any thought since then, interest has kind of tailed off due to no new material to work with. But I promise to come back to it; please be patient!

Wish you're well.
Well lets use that chart you posted and see what it says shall we?

You are Jupiter ....in Virgo...weak...in the appropriate 9th of distant travel...shall we say since 9th covers a lot... But distant travel is good enough. Virgo is the scholar...a youth at study. Pluto ....death...has just moved into the first. are you new to this interest? i would say so from this. I would say three years since your interest sparked. I would say an idea of making money from publishing might be what you are after. pluto capricorn is not in it for glory. Just by that alone and from what you have written which might i say speaks volumes, the chart is radical.

Jupiter disposits to mercury sitting in the 9th also...analysing as it does seeking to use right brain to govern left. By that its obvious that its in Leo territory...sun sitting strongly in own house in 8th ruling death.... So again we have confirmation that this distant journey is in the hands of death seeking to analyse logically in the hands of a weak seeker....for monetary reward.....said Jupiter in Virgo.

Mercury is opposed by Neptune in Pisces in the intercepted third and critically Rx. The brain of the scholar is being shielded. Neptune also is strong n its own sign. But it's not disclosing..it's withholding. even if strong, it's hiding. So analytical mercurial scholar can't see clear past the blocks and there is no way any insight is going to be forthcoming since interception just won't permit that...it's faced with wishful thinking, lying and make believe....all the neptunian bag of shielding tricks to fool itself that it's 'got something'!

I forgot to add above that you are also intercepted...boxed in...contained..not able to get out...in a material hold.

According to latest psychological findings our brain...and body ....does a hard reboot every night. We die and are rebooted back. Interesting I think.

Fascinating that excluding you....the deluded questioner.....all else is strongly in own signs! Says something.

And that ...as they say... Is that.

By the way, you do know that there is a viral infection that causes exactly what you describe. It went through Europe some years back and I managed to get it. It lasted, as you say, a couple of hours ...exactly your symptoms....and now and again I have a re-experience. Viruses are another life form altogether! Neptune rules viruses....

Astrology as its known and studied is for material world. Astrology is the study and interpretation of electromagnetic effects. it cannot be applied out of material since magnetic effects are earth specific and apply only to earth.

When we go to mars we can see if magnetism works there also or not.

I cannot say If there is a high level form of this low level tool. Gut feels says yes but I don't know what it is and how it functions. I would say it would fall under study of energy.
autumn wrote: Fascinating that excluding you....the deluded questioner.....


This is not an horary chart, there is no questioner, and hence Precaud is not Jupiter in Virgo in 9. This is an event chart. Different kind of animal.

Try again.
autumn wrote: You are Jupiter ....in Virgo...weak...(snip)
are you new to this interest? i would say so from this. I would say three years since your interest sparked. I would say an idea of making money from publishing might be what you are after.(snip)
We have confirmation that this distant journey is in the hands of death seeking to analyse logically in the hands of a weak seeker....for monetary reward(snip)
The brain of the scholar is being shielded... even if strong, it's hiding.... there is no way any insight is going to be forthcoming...it's faced with wishful thinking, lying and make believe....(snip)
I forgot to add above that you are also intercepted...boxed in...contained..not able to get out...in a material hold.(snip)
And that ...as they say... Is that.

My dear, inconsiderate Mr Autumn,

Thank you for that "really delightful" reading of "my chart". I'll do my best to overcome my "weakness" and "boxed-in, shielded brain" for long enough to respond. But first, I must try to stop laughing at the absurdity of it all.

Fascinating that excluding you....the deluded questioner.....all else is strongly in own signs! Says something.

Yes, fascinating... what is says is; you've developed quite a skill at telling others just how pitiful they are and how pointless their existence is. If I ever meet anyone who needs this "service", I'll send them your way.

1. In my first response to you, since you have no interest in the topic, I asked that you kindly please refrain from posting in it, and leave it for those of us who do have an interest. Yet you post anyway, dragging it further off-course. Shame. Have you no decency or self-restraint?

2. If you would like to expound your considerable knowledge of classic and medieval astrology, which, as you so aptly demonstrated for us, is full of elitist, punitive, and useless garbage, please do so in a separate thread.

3. The chart whose character you assassinated is not mine, and not any person's; it is, as Martina said, an event chart.

And so I ask you again; since you're not interested in the topic at hand, please move along and let it be. This "thread-jacking" is a common behavior I find on many internet forums. People who have no interest in a particular thread's topic somehow feel compelled to post their negative impressions in it. It is inconsiderate and counterproductive.
I personally do not like the negative connotations I am hearing in this thread.

If I see anymore of it I am going to take action to end it....

Thats a pretty straight forward remark from me

Garry An Administrator of this Peaceful Forum


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