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Some say that we are here to suffer in order to learn and grow. If that is the type of God who has sent us here, then I would obviously want such a God destroyed. This article that explains the value of suffering is nonsense to me:

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/s ... tions.html

I will just point a couple things out from that article:

"People who are thinking of killing themselves can learn a great deal from NDEs. Some NDEs suggest that committing suicide may be the worse thing anyone can do because it is rejecting God's gift of life which destroys an opportunity for spiritual advancement. "

"Angie's NDE gives us a unique insight into unjustifiable suicide. It suggests that one of life's purposes is to grow through suffering. It validates the truthfulness of the phrase, "No pain. No gain."

I have struggled with severe depression in my life and there was no value whatsoever in that. It has destroyed my life and there was nothing to learn and grow from that. The only good thing was getting out of that depressive hell.

This also applies to people in psyche wards who go through the worst suffering and have their lives destroyed. There is no value in a life like that. To go up and tell such a person:

"Welp, no pain no gain. You are here to learn and grow and that is the way it is. Too bad. You are not getting a happy life. Life is tough and that is the way it is."

This is completely insulting. So if there is such a God like that, then this is no loving God at all. A loving God would be someone like my mother. She wants me to be happy. If she were God and I said to her that I wish to have no suffering and no misery in my life, I just want to be happy and have an awesome life, don't value learning and growing, and only value being happy, then she would say:

"I am completely cool with that. There is no need for you to suffer and there is no need for any learning and growing through suffering since it is something you don't value and is only something that destroys your life. So I will give you the most blissful life ever and it will be the most awesome life for you! This is what you value and I will give that life to you."

If someone came up to her and wanted a life of suffering and wanted to learn and grow from that, then she would say:

"I am cool with that as well. This is what you value and I will make your life a meaningful struggle for you."

A true loving God would be someone who would give us the lives we value. If someone only values a blissful life of no suffering and misery, then he/she should have that life. If someone values a life of suffering and misery, then he/she should have that life. For a God to go against our values would be our greatest enemy. As long as such values are not causing harm to anyone else, then there should be no problems.

I don't harm anyone else and am respectful towards others. Therefore, I should of been given a blissful life when my soul was brought here on Earth. As a matter of fact, since I only value a blissful life of no suffering, then heaven would of been the perfect life for that. I should of been born in heaven and remained there for all eternity where I would not have to worry about any suffering in my life.

There was, therefore, no reason for me to be brought here where I am living a miserable depressive life filled with ocd thoughts that have caused my depression and destroyed my life. I was brought here to suffer against my will and against my values. This has absolutely enraged me and if there is such a God who has done this, then we as souls should all plan our destruction of such a God.

If I were to take myself out of this life, then a truly loving God would immediately send me to heaven knowing how my life was and knowing that me being happy and worry free is the only thing that makes my life worth living.
MattMVS7 wrote: Some say that we are here to suffer in order to learn and grow. If that is the type of God who has sent us here, then I would obviously want such a God destroyed. This article that explains the value of suffering is nonsense to me:

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/s ... tions.html

I will just point a couple things out from that article:

"People who are thinking of killing themselves can learn a great deal from NDEs. Some NDEs suggest that committing suicide may be the worse thing anyone can do because it is rejecting God's gift of life which destroys an opportunity for spiritual advancement. "

"Angie's NDE gives us a unique insight into unjustifiable suicide. It suggests that one of life's purposes is to grow through suffering. It validates the truthfulness of the phrase, "No pain. No gain."

I have struggled with severe depression in my life and there was no value whatsoever in that. It has destroyed my life and there was nothing to learn and grow from that. The only good thing was getting out of that depressive hell.

This also applies to people in psyche wards who go through the worst suffering and have their lives destroyed. There is no value in a life like that. To go up and tell such a person:

"Welp, no pain no gain. You are here to learn and grow and that is the way it is. Too bad. You are not getting a happy life. Life is tough and that is the way it is."

This is completely insulting. So if there is such a God like that, then this is no loving God at all. A loving God would be someone like my mother. She wants me to be happy. If she were God and I said to her that I wish to have no suffering and no misery in my life, I just want to be happy and have an awesome life, don't value learning and growing, and only value being happy, then she would say:

"I am completely cool with that. There is no need for you to suffer and there is no need for any learning and growing through suffering since it is something you don't value and is only something that destroys your life. So I will give you the most blissful life ever and it will be the most awesome life for you! This is what you value and I will give that life to you."

If someone came up to her and wanted a life of suffering and wanted to learn and grow from that, then she would say:

"I am cool with that as well. This is what you value and I will make your life a meaningful struggle for you."

A true loving God would be someone who would give us the lives we value. If someone only values a blissful life of no suffering and misery, then he/she should have that life. If someone values a life of suffering and misery, then he/she should have that life. For a God to go against our values would be our greatest enemy. As long as such values are not causing harm to anyone else, then there should be no problems.

I don't harm anyone else and am respectful towards others. Therefore, I should of been given a blissful life when my soul was brought here on Earth. As a matter of fact, since I only value a blissful life of no suffering, then heaven would of been the perfect life for that. I should of been born in heaven and remained there for all eternity where I would not have to worry about any suffering in my life.

There was, therefore, no reason for me to be brought here where I am living a miserable depressive life filled with ocd thoughts that have caused my depression and destroyed my life. I was brought here to suffer against my will and against my values. This has absolutely enraged me and if there is such a God who has done this, then we as souls should all plan our destruction of such a God.


I am not say you did or didn't choose the life you have.

I am only saying, " What if you did choose to try this flavor of life this time around "

We don't know what put us in the situation we are in, just as I don't remember asking for the crappy childhood I had but I got by it and moved on and I learned from it.

Just saying
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Garry wrote:
MattMVS7 wrote: Some say that we are here to suffer in order to learn and grow. If that is the type of God who has sent us here, then I would obviously want such a God destroyed. This article that explains the value of suffering is nonsense to me:

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/s ... tions.html

I will just point a couple things out from that article:

"People who are thinking of killing themselves can learn a great deal from NDEs. Some NDEs suggest that committing suicide may be the worse thing anyone can do because it is rejecting God's gift of life which destroys an opportunity for spiritual advancement. "

"Angie's NDE gives us a unique insight into unjustifiable suicide. It suggests that one of life's purposes is to grow through suffering. It validates the truthfulness of the phrase, "No pain. No gain."

I have struggled with severe depression in my life and there was no value whatsoever in that. It has destroyed my life and there was nothing to learn and grow from that. The only good thing was getting out of that depressive hell.

This also applies to people in psyche wards who go through the worst suffering and have their lives destroyed. There is no value in a life like that. To go up and tell such a person:

"Welp, no pain no gain. You are here to learn and grow and that is the way it is. Too bad. You are not getting a happy life. Life is tough and that is the way it is."

This is completely insulting. So if there is such a God like that, then this is no loving God at all. A loving God would be someone like my mother. She wants me to be happy. If she were God and I said to her that I wish to have no suffering and no misery in my life, I just want to be happy and have an awesome life, don't value learning and growing, and only value being happy, then she would say:

"I am completely cool with that. There is no need for you to suffer and there is no need for any learning and growing through suffering since it is something you don't value and is only something that destroys your life. So I will give you the most blissful life ever and it will be the most awesome life for you! This is what you value and I will give that life to you."

If someone came up to her and wanted a life of suffering and wanted to learn and grow from that, then she would say:

"I am cool with that as well. This is what you value and I will make your life a meaningful struggle for you."

A true loving God would be someone who would give us the lives we value. If someone only values a blissful life of no suffering and misery, then he/she should have that life. If someone values a life of suffering and misery, then he/she should have that life. For a God to go against our values would be our greatest enemy. As long as such values are not causing harm to anyone else, then there should be no problems.

I don't harm anyone else and am respectful towards others. Therefore, I should of been given a blissful life when my soul was brought here on Earth. As a matter of fact, since I only value a blissful life of no suffering, then heaven would of been the perfect life for that. I should of been born in heaven and remained there for all eternity where I would not have to worry about any suffering in my life.

There was, therefore, no reason for me to be brought here where I am living a miserable depressive life filled with ocd thoughts that have caused my depression and destroyed my life. I was brought here to suffer against my will and against my values. This has absolutely enraged me and if there is such a God who has done this, then we as souls should all plan our destruction of such a God.


I am not say you did or didn't choose the life you have.

I am only saying, " What if you did choose to try this flavor of life this time around "

We don't know what put us in the situation we are in, just as I don't remember asking for the crappy childhood I had but I got by it and moved on and I learned from it.

Just saying

When you have obsessive depressive worries, that causes your mind to focus on a problem and to shut out everything else in your life so that everything else becomes completely dead, miserable, empty, and has no more significance to you. So having these ocd thoughts that have made my life miserable has completely taken my life away.

Living this way will not make my life meaningful again. It will not bring the significance back into my life again as long as I have these thoughts. As long as my brain is focused and worried on these thoughts, then everything else in my life will remain completely shut out which will make everything in my life continue to remain completely dead.

You say to try this way of life as though it can be a life of much meaning (significance). No. It will always remain empty since my brain will always continue to shut out everything else in my life as long as I have these worries. If I learned anything from this, then I would have learned just how important my happiness really is for me.

I have learned that there was no reason for me to suffer here on Earth and that I should of been born and stayed in heaven where I belong. If I were to take myself out of this life, then a truly loving God would immediately send me to heaven knowing how my life was and knowing that me being happy and worry free is the only thing that makes my life worth living.
“In the spring of 2005, Jim Miller, a Native spiritual leader and Vietnam veteran, found himself in a dream riding on horseback across the great plains of South Dakota. Just before he awoke, he arrived at a riverbank in Minnesota and saw 38 of his Dakota ancestors hanged. At the time, Jim knew nothing of the largest mass execution in United States history, ordered by Abraham Lincoln on December 26, 1862. "When you have dreams, you know when they come from the creator... As any recovered alcoholic, I made believe that I didn't get it. I tried to put it out of my mind, yet it's one of those dreams that bothers you night and day."

Now, four years later, embracing the message of the dream, Jim and a group of riders retrace the 330-mile route of his dream on horseback from Lower Brule, South Dakota to Mankato, Minnesota to arrive at the hanging site on the anniversary of the execution. "We can't blame the wasichus anymore. We're doing it to ourselves. We're selling drugs. We're killing our own people. That's what this ride is about, is healing." This is the story of their journey- the blizzards they endure, the Native and Non-Native communities that house and feed them along the way, and the dark history they are beginning to wipe away.”

DAKOTA 38

Matt, I don’t know where you live or what age you are but if you take the time to watch this documentary you may find some inspiration from these great warriors who turned their nightmare into a great healing ceremony!
mbee wrote: “In the spring of 2005, Jim Miller, a Native spiritual leader and Vietnam veteran, found himself in a dream riding on horseback across the great plains of South Dakota. Just before he awoke, he arrived at a riverbank in Minnesota and saw 38 of his Dakota ancestors hanged. At the time, Jim knew nothing of the largest mass execution in United States history, ordered by Abraham Lincoln on December 26, 1862. "When you have dreams, you know when they come from the creator... As any recovered alcoholic, I made believe that I didn't get it. I tried to put it out of my mind, yet it's one of those dreams that bothers you night and day."

Now, four years later, embracing the message of the dream, Jim and a group of riders retrace the 330-mile route of his dream on horseback from Lower Brule, South Dakota to Mankato, Minnesota to arrive at the hanging site on the anniversary of the execution. "We can't blame the wasichus anymore. We're doing it to ourselves. We're selling drugs. We're killing our own people. That's what this ride is about, is healing." This is the story of their journey- the blizzards they endure, the Native and Non-Native communities that house and feed them along the way, and the dark history they are beginning to wipe away.”

DAKOTA 38

Matt, I don’t know where you live or what age you are but if you take the time to watch this documentary you may find some inspiration from these great warriors who turned their nightmare into a great healing ceremony!

Please read my previous post I just made. How is my life supposed to have significance (meaning) again as long as this constant obsessive worry is always there making my life completely empty? If you wish to know the situation I am that has me worried, then I can explain it if you like.
Hi Matt,

You don't think I need to because I took the time to carefully read your other two posts concerning nightmares and NDE life reviews. If you also take the time to see what I am showing you may or may not (it is always a choice we can make) find some space and perspective to see your present position more clearly.
peace x
Matt, now you've done it.
You have really pissed me off this time and us admins are seriously considering banning your 4$$!

You want to know where you will end up if you step out now. Let me tell you.
You will end up in a very dark place filled with like minded individuals who all consider themselves victims of an evil God and totally left to their own devices, disconnected from anything worth living for. In short you will find yourself in a living hell for what will feel like an eternity.
The reason? Because that is exactly where you are now and Like attracts like. You need to harden the F up and get yourself out of this victim mentality and give yourself a good kick in the 4$$ before life does it for you!
If you consider this a harsh message think again. It's what you call "Tough Love" and in your case its totally called for.

Focus on the positive and try to get a bigger perspective. If the link that you posted offends you I have an alternative vision that Might just help. Download Brian Ridgeway's book on Amazon (free for a couple of days) Its called Break your self help Addiction. It contains a very insightful spiritual take on all this and may be just what you need.

Note this does not constitute medical advice and I must INSIST you get help for your OCD and pull yourself out of this shit hole you have dug for yourself! Use the help that is available and quit thinking you need to do everything yourself. You are not Chuck Norris so don't try to live like him!
Dennis
Hi Matt,
I sent you a pm.

I do hope whatever you're going through, you will find a solution that is acceptable to your own soul, and others. If you read people's ndes, then you know that every action you take affects others. Whether you think so or not.
I do suggest getting qualified help - no one can do that but you.

I also want to mention, there are two main emotions that we base our actions on in this life. And that's "fear", and "love". Once learning to grow in love and compassion, you will start to learn that by living for others will fill your heart and give you peace. I honestly don't know the situation you're in, but I do know it is operated out of "fear". For your own self. We're all on this planet trying to make sense of it, and we all need each other to do that. ;)
God lets us have free will. It is our ultimate gift. So it is our choice if we want to live in fear or love. But we must be strong enough to overcome our situations, or we're destined to repeat that in the next life/lives. And I think it's important to open our hearts and let God in and trust Him. We automatically shut Him out when things don't go our way, but we don't know the bigger picture. If our goal is to grow in love, then we need to do that, not just run to a parent to walk us through everything. How is that teaching us values? If we want the world to be a better place, then we must work on ourselves, and trust that "love is the plan" - we're the answer. When are we going to realize that and step up to the task? Instead of shrugging it off and wanting everything to be perfect without earning it?
That is not development, that's spiritual stagnation. At least in my perspective...


Please know that people do care, about our world and other people.
Love and peace *hugs*
DennisMe wrote: Matt, now you've done it.
You have really pissed me off this time and us admins are seriously considering banning your 4$$!

You want to know where you will end up if you step out now. Let me tell you.
{snipped}

Bravo, Dennis! Where is the "Like" button? I was looking but couldn't find it. :)
DennisMe wrote: Matt, now you've done it.
You have really pissed me off this time and us admins are seriously considering banning your 4$$!

You want to know where you will end up if you step out now. Let me tell you.
You will end up in a very dark place filled with like minded individuals who all consider themselves victims of an evil God and totally left to their own devices, disconnected from anything worth living for. In short you will find yourself in a living hell for what will feel like an eternity.
The reason? Because that is exactly where you are now and Like attracts like. You need to harden the F up and get yourself out of this victim mentality and give yourself a good kick in the 4$$ before life does it for you!
If you consider this a harsh message think again. It's what you call "Tough Love" and in your case its totally called for.

Focus on the positive and try to get a bigger perspective. If the link that you posted offends you I have an alternative vision that Might just help. Download Brian Ridgeway's book on Amazon (free for a couple of days) Its called Break your self help Addiction. It contains a very insightful spiritual take on all this and may be just what you need.

Note this does not constitute medical advice and I must INSIST you get help for your OCD and pull yourself out of this shit hole you have dug for yourself! Use the help that is available and quit thinking you need to do everything yourself. You are not Chuck Norris so don't try to live like him!
Dennis

I don't agree you would go to hell. No pure loving innocent God would do that. Nor would He have anyone reincarnated to relive through that again. You must understand here that there are those truly hopeless in life who live through so much suffering that there is no hope of coping or anything with their lives. No God would have such a person reincarnated to live through that suffering again.

If there is a loving God, then the reason why I am here and suffering instead of up in heaven would instead have to be a different reason. Since a loving God would want me to be happy up in heaven and not suffer, then there is a different reason why I am here. It would have to be a reason that would not cause me to be angry at God and would not cause me to view Him as insensitive and cruel.

That reason just might be that there is no God and no afterlife and that the reason why we suffer here on Earth is because that is just the way it is. Some people are fortunate in life and live nice lives while others live unfortunate lives of suffering. So it is all based on how your life goes and nothing more. So if I take myself out of this life, then I will just be gone and that is it.

Also, if I have upset or offended you in any way, then I did not mean to. I am just speaking from my own perspective as a human being. I think I have rights and am entitled to live a happy life of no suffering/misery and I am just explaining my own perspective on why I think it is unjust or even that there might really be no God and no afterlife just as I mentioned in my previous paragraph.

prismreverie wrote: Hi Matt,
I sent you a pm.

I do hope whatever you're going through, you will find a solution that is acceptable to your own soul, and others. If you read people's ndes, then you know that every action you take affects others. Whether you think so or not.
I do suggest getting qualified help - no one can do that but you.

I also want to mention, there are two main emotions that we base our actions on in this life. And that's "fear", and "love". Once learning to grow in love and compassion, you will start to learn that by living for others will fill your heart and give you peace. I honestly don't know the situation you're in, but I do know it is operated out of "fear". For your own self. We're all on this planet trying to make sense of it, and we all need each other to do that. ;)
God lets us have free will. It is our ultimate gift. So it is our choice if we want to live in fear or love. But we must be strong enough to overcome our situations, or we're destined to repeat that in the next life/lives. And I think it's important to open our hearts and let God in and trust Him. We automatically shut Him out when things don't go our way, but we don't know the bigger picture. If our goal is to grow in love, then we need to do that, not just run to a parent to walk us through everything. How is that teaching us values? If we want the world to be a better place, then we must work on ourselves, and trust that "love is the plan" - we're the answer. When are we going to realize that and step up to the task? Instead of shrugging it off and wanting everything to be perfect without earning it?
That is not development, that's spiritual stagnation. At least in my perspective...


Please know that people do care, about our world and other people.
Love and peace *hugs*


I do not agree that we are here to develop spiritually and to learn and grow. There is no need for that. It is completely unnecessary and pointless. All that matters is a person's happiness. That a person lives a blissful life free of all suffering and misery. So that is what matters. Not a person's growth and development. At least, that holds true for me and not for some others.

Like I said, some people value bliss only while others value growth and development. But it would be a mistake to project your values to the entirety of reality itself by saying that we are ALL here to learn and grow. That would be no different than if I said we are all here to just be happy and to not learn and grow.
MattMVS7 wrote: I don't agree you would go to hell. No pure loving innocent God would do that. Nor would He have anyone reincarnated to relive through that again. You must understand here that there are those truly hopeless in life who live through so much suffering that there is no hope of coping or anything with their lives. No God would have such a person reincarnated to live through that suffering again.


Matt, you do not seem to have got the point!

DennisMe wrote: You want to know where you will end up if you step out now. Let me tell you.
You will end up in a very dark place filled with like minded individuals who all consider themselves victims of an evil God and totally left to their own devices, disconnected from anything worth living for. In short you will find yourself in a living hell for what will feel like an eternity.


This forum is about Near Death Experiences and other Spiritually Transformative Experiences and any other related topics members may wish to discuss in compliance with our Joining Rules.

A Near Death Experience (just as the Life Review that Near Death Experiencers often report) is an experience you have if you happen to be revived after you have been clinically dead for a short time.

What you are contemplating lies outside our understanding and duties towards you, since, as far as we understand, NDEs and final physical death are two different things.

By posting your questions over and over on different forums you may obtain supportive words, you may gain the attention you are seeking, but you will not get any professional treatment for your condition, nor can you hope to obtain answers about what will happen to you once you are finally physically dead, though, based on my understanding and researches on the subject, what would await you is exactly what Dennis explained to you.

NDERF does not condone suicide. By joining this forum you agreed to comply with this rule.

If you think that there is sufficient scientific data to back up the idea that putting an end to your physical life will dispense you from a hellish experience that will seem to last for ages, just as Dennis clearly explained, then you may well be mistaken.

Since you are obviously able to think in a logic way, you appear to be absolutely responsible for your actions, which call for professional assistance we are unable to supply, and, above all, do not appear to dispense you from the afterlife scenario Denis described.*

If you find that MattMVS7 has been subject to any Disciplinary Actions after this post, please understand that it is out compassion for you and all other readers/members and not a form of punishment.


  • In the interests of subsequent readers: Research is not conclusive on this as yet, but there appears to be a correlation between one's state of mind at the time of the NDE and hellish experiences. These appear to be transient but to the experiencer they often feel like an eternity. From a faith perspective Christianity is very negative on suicide, Spiritism also warns strongly and all (to my knowledge) NDE experiencers who survived suicide also warn strongly against such attempts or express their deep regrets at having attempted it.
    For an excellent treatment of this subject read: Nancy Evans Bush, "Dancing Past the Dark: Distressing Near-Death Experiences"

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