Mission Statment

click me to Open or Close
"This is a non-profit, non-denominational and apolitical online discussion site, designed to support research and study of consciousness experiences, such as near death experiences and other spiritually transformative experiences, support experiencers and spread the message of love, unity and peace around the world. We do not allow proselytizing or bullying (please refer to our Joining Rules). We welcome and encourage people of all backgrounds, nationalities, countries and/or religions to bring up any topic they feel fit for this place and to read and participate in the conversations held here, in a relaxed and friendly atmosphere."
Flight / Vived Imagery / Warmth
Life Review / Unbounded Love
Timelessness / Unusual Knowledge
17 posts Page 1 of 1
I would like to start discussion about this that hell could be permanent. I would like consider this basing on what people are saing in their NDE's. There are really many NDE's on youtube in which people are saing that it is permanent.
There are really many many of them. On the other hand many people are saing that it is not truth. On this website near-death.com they come to conclusion that it is not permanent. But i am wondering why they think like that. I think that may think this way because in almoust every nde when someone is asking for help this help comes. But the problem is that their are not really dead and i think that is why it is shown to them that they can change their life and be saved.

Beside all of this i can not imagine being happy in heaven when i will know that someone is suffering for all eternity no matter how evil he was in his life and that there is no rescue for him. But this fact that i can not imagine something does not men it is not truth.

Please write what you are thinking about this.
I know for a fact that you can be in hell here on earth.

Ive witnessed (regarding others) as well as experienced the phenomenon personally of voluntarily staying in a bad/painful situation.

Ive also read NDEes in which people testified that they witnessed beings in hell like torment, but they (ie, those beings) did not seem to even consider leaving or separating from their situation.

Read "The Gnostic Gospels" by Elaine Pagels (available as PDF download).

In it Jesus warns :

"Do not do what you hate."
tadu983 wrote: I would like to start discussion about this that hell could be permanent. I would like consider this basing on what people are saing in their NDE's. There are really many NDE's on youtube in which people are saing that it is permanent.
There are really many many of them. On the other hand many people are saing that it is not truth. On this website near-death.com they come to conclusion that it is not permanent. But i am wondering why they think like that. I think that may think this way because in almoust every nde when someone is asking for help this help comes. But the problem is that their are not really dead and i think that is why it is shown to them that they can change their life and be saved.

Beside all of this i can not imagine being happy in heaven when i will know that someone is suffering for all eternity no matter how evil he was in his life and that there is no rescue for him. But this fact that i can not imagine something does not men it is not truth.

Please write what you are thinking about this.


Hi tadu and welcome! :)

You raise good questions, and I like that you feel concern for those that may or may not be stuck in hell for "eternity".

I don't believe in hell, I believe hell is a state of mind, in this earthly life as well as in the afterlife, where a soul does not want or can not progress but is stuck in negative and damaging emotions (fear, guilt, anger etc).

I've read on another forum where a medium was sharing her insights into Osama Bin Laden's "fate" after his earthly death. She said that he is now in isolation and more advanced spirits are working with him to make him understand his actions in his last life. Is that hell? Maybe for him it is. I don't know.

The other question is, what is eternity? I have seen it mentioned in some NDE accounts that a moment was both, just a split second and eternity as well. So the whole concept of time does not seem to be something that can be easily applied to life in spirit. Time does not exist there, is what most people who came back report. If there's no time, then what is eternity? I think a minute of deep despair or regret can feel like eternity, the depth of feeling is, I believe, an important factor.

Lastly, I think one should always take into account the person who is reporting details about life in spirit. My impression is that sometimes the personality of the person who had a nde interprets the experience in a certain way. So for example, a fundamental Christian would report back about states of "hell" because that is how they understand it now that they are back in the body and look at the experience and think about it with the help or filter of their human mind.
tadu983 wrote: I would like to start discussion about this that hell could be permanent. I would like consider this basing on what people are saing in their NDE's. There are really many NDE's on youtube in which people are saing that it is permanent.
There are really many many of them. On the other hand many people are saing that it is not truth. On this website near-death.com they come to conclusion that it is not permanent. But i am wondering why they think like that. I think that may think this way because in almoust every nde when someone is asking for help this help comes. But the problem is that their are not really dead and i think that is why it is shown to them that they can change their life and be saved.

Beside all of this i can not imagine being happy in heaven when i will know that someone is suffering for all eternity no matter how evil he was in his life and that there is no rescue for him. But this fact that i can not imagine something does not men it is not truth.

Please write what you are thinking about this.


Hi, tadu, and welcome.

Based on my understanding, I agree that Hell is a state of mind and I also agree that the notion of timelessness is due to the fact that this state of mind can be experienced beyond our notion of linear time, i.e. out of time.

I have personally researched the topic, both with regards to accounts by people who have had a NDE, or have been in a coma and then come back to life, and with regards to people who have communicated after death through mediums. In both cases it appears that help is always available even in the darkest situations, which often arise from a state of mind associated with guilt or fear, as well as from a very materialistic, egoic, sadist (you name it) approach we might have developed, which tends to attract disincarnate beings who are similar to ourselves (according to the like-attracts-like law). I have also personally observed pre-death hellish experiences, basically arising from a fear-based understanding of what awaits us after death, or simply from fear of the unknown.

While I understand the notion that real Hell is experienced on earth, I have read many accounts in which hellish situations experienced in a disincarnate state can be quite different, as the feeling of separation from our loving divine Source is much more obvious than it may appear while we are wearing a physical vehicle.

Whatever the cause for the hellish experience, I have personally reached the conclusion that there is no such thing as a permanent state of mind caused by separation from our loving divine Source, as we all belong to that Source: we have simply forgotten!
Hello from Italy - How I found out about NDERF - A Strange Experience
"Looking back into the tunnel, I noticed there were doorways in both sides of the structure. A few other cross/stars were wandering about in the tunnel, some blue like myself, some amber colored. Two other blue cross/stars appeared beside me and gently propelled me into the tunnel. I floated along and up observing that some 'door-ways' were open while others seemed to have been shut. The first doorway I peered into resembled a classic Hell. There was the sound of shrieking and agonizing screams. Naked human beings were strewn about a blasted landscape with pools of bubbling excrement and jagged boulders. Devils and other animals were torturing people in all imaginable ways; and people were also torturing each other. As I neared the doorway to this sinister scene, I felt a sucking sensation drawing me in like a whirlpool, and I found myself 'flying' above the miserable landscape. The smell was putrid and the heat was almost unbearable but a part of me was fascinated by the seemingly infinite varieties of pain and anguish that was being inflicted on the inhabitants of this realm. Most of me wanted to leave so I had no difficulty and my feeling was that anyone could leave if they wished. I felt that no one or nothing had put those people in captivity except their belief in the agony they continued to suffer. I 'flew' back to the doorway which was clearly visible from everywhere in the 'Hell' I left with nothing but joy, but I still had a sense of myself as apart from that joy." - Sarah's NDE
I have read this NDE some time ago, but i have alsow saw on youtube many NDE's that contradicts to this what is written here. There is a problem because i can not put links on this forum but many people are saing that there are human souls in hell that are asking for help and no one helps them. There are testimonies in whitch people are saing that thay know while being in hell that this is permanent state. I just wonder how and why someone who is an expert on ndes like peoples from webpage neardeath.com can write that hell is not permanent like it woule be obvious. In my opinion many people are just writing things that they want to belive and not analizing. I would alsow write another conclusion from my reserch on NDEs. I noticed that there are many christan NDEs of peoples that where not raised in christian religion. This alsow contradicts to this what is written on neardeath.com.
tadu983 wrote: I have read this NDE some time ago, but i have alsow saw on youtube many NDE's that contradicts to this what is written here. There is a problem because i can not put links on this forum but many people are saing that there are human souls in hell that are asking for help and no one helps them. There are testimonies in whitch people are saing that thay know while being in hell that this is permanent state. I just wonder how and why someone who is an expert on ndes like peoples from webpage neardeath.com can write that hell is not permanent like it woule be obvious. In my opinion many people are just writing things that they want to belive and not analizing. I would alsow write another conclusion from my reserch on NDEs. I noticed that there are many christan NDEs of peoples that where not raised in christian religion. This alsow contradicts to this what is written on neardeath.com.


Hi again, Tadu.

If you have trouble posting links before you reach your 6th post, please do not hesitate to send me a PM with the links you wish to include and I will be happy to post them for you. By the way, I am having some difficulty with links today too, but I am aware that there is ongoing maintenance activity, so that may be the reason.

In the meantime, here is a list of NDE Experts you may wish to look into: http://www.near-death.com/science/experts.html

Here is a link to Kevin Williams' NDE Research Conclusions on Hell: http://www.near-death.com/science/research/hell.html.

As I understand it, what you are basically saying is that any reply to your question suggesting that hell is not permanent and all the accounts from NDErs suggesting the same notion are just wishful thinking by people who have not taken the time to analyse the topic. The research conlcusions above come as a result of carefully analysing an amazing number of NDE accounts, so I thought you might be interested in reading them.

One thing I would keep in mind, in any case, is that whatever notion we come back with while physically alive involves filters which make questions such as yours difficult to answer unless one uses one's intuition as well as the analysed data.

However, no one here will force you to change your mind. It is up to you to research the topic and draw your own conclusions.

About people from a specific religion seeing or being attracted to a representative of another religion, I understand that is quite common, and does not suggest that only one religious perspective is valid. We are often fascinated by the unknown, and you will find many Anglican mediums, for instance, who have a Native American spirit guide. Based on my understanding, all religions have at their core the same golden rule, centred on Love, which is a message many NDErs come back with.
Hello from Italy - How I found out about NDERF - A Strange Experience
In a sense, you have answered your own question Tadu.

Consider again Sarah's NDE.

"I felt that no one or nothing had put those people in captivity except their belief in the agony they continued to suffer.

..... my feeling was that anyone could leave if they wished.
"

The answer you get is the point of view YOU choose !

If you are the one in who needs hell, then for YOU it is permanent until the mind/soul undergoes the change needed to leave.
From the point of view of one who doesnt need hell and is just a passing observing, it appears like an option of marvel.

Even the bible states that hell is for those who cannot/will not accept the Light (God?).


The phenomena is encountered regularly here on earth in myriad forms by each of us who know or see people regularly who voluntarily remain in difficult or bad situations. Many ultimately undergo the needed change of mind or heart necessary to make the change needed to exit their situation.

Consider how the universe shows us here, mercy ....... that persons encountering great suffering, even through no control or fault of their own,
IT IS LIMITED - BOTH BY THE PHYSICAL SENSES AND ULTIMATE RELEASE BY BODILY DEATH.

AS ABOVE, SO BELOW
Oh ya,

I was attempting to add a couple extra thoughts to my post via the edit, but the edit "timed out".

Mainly, if one steps back and attempts to consider the idea of "permanent hell" and in particular a biblical involuntary mandatory permanent hell, then this raises a myriad of philosophical issues. Some of these include:

- What about all those NDERers (researchers, experiencers and otherwise) purporting evolutionary soul growth as this would seemingly come to an eternal dead stop for many with a mandatory permanent hell?

- Are we or are we not beings (spiritual & otherwise) possessing free will ? (Seemingly, in a big picture, not if one is involuntarily trapped in a permanent hell.)

- If hell is permanent and not a creation of the conscious, then who or what has created it? Who or what enforces the rules regarding it (eg, the selection process, controls the lock box, etc.)? The implication is that taking the position of existence of a permanent hell de facto implies that there is a superior God. It would seem then that one necessarily is obliged to develop their conjecture from an assumption of a controlling superior being.


There are other ramifications, but these few might open further the topic discussion from others.
Following Rey's direction is what made me the universalist I am now, much like Kevin Williams, from who's work you quote.

A permanent hell with no chance of redemption necessitates the sanction of God (making God a despotic tyrant) or limits Gods power and negates gods free will, (making god a sort of super human). For millennia this has been most peoples' idea of God. A powerful humanoid being, with human traits amplified "ad absurdum". The Greeks and Romans did this to great literary effect and the church carried on the tradition enthusiastically, albeit in a somewhat more puritan package.

I don't believe in the despotic tyrant or the limited humanoid being. Well, they do exist, but they are not what I would call god. I know fundamentalists like to argue that seeing that God is god, he alone sets the rules and determines what is just, even if it isn't just to our perception. Basically that argument diminishes humans to mindless zombies who just need to follow god's written orders (as explained by church leadership, of course...). This argument means we have a brain but it is unfortunately not usable, except to follow orders. I just can't imagine why we would have free will if using it would lead to permanent torture. To me that is simply insane.

The other main line of reasoning against permanent torture in hell is to ask where we got that idea in the first place. Its not in the bible and fits in a long list of dogma that were made up to support a literal reading of the bible. Making stuff up is inescapable really, if you want to have a logically consistent literal reading you have to make quite a lot of stuff up to get it all to fit, or else you give up logic. Its quite maddening!
All that isn't helped by the fact that western translators of old had a lot more dogma than understanding of the original languages. This lead to mistranslations of several different words, with very diverse meanings, in several languages, all going to 'hell'. Especially the KJV is guilty of this, and its very popular among fundamentalists, mainly in the USA. Probably because it conforms to dogma so well (gee, I wonder how that happened)...

"Beside all of this i can not imagine being happy in heaven when i will know that someone is suffering for all eternity no matter how evil he was in his life and that there is no rescue for him. But this fact that i can not imagine something does not men it is not truth."
I'm 100% with you in that! I'd rather be out there saving poor sods from the flames of torment than warming myself at their expense. That being so, does that make me a better person than God? I don't think so, my money is on God being better than me, much better. The only God that makes any sense is the one that NDE experiencers tell about (and Jesus too, by the way). The unconditionally loving God. The Bible says God IS Love. No ifs and buts God IS love, not he has lots of love or "he can be a really nice guy sometimes" (that's what beaten wives often say), no:
God IS love.
Basta! (I mean, amen).
tadu983 wrote: I would like to start discussion about this that hell could be permanent. I would like consider this basing on what people are saing in their NDE's. There are really many NDE's on youtube in which people are saing that it is permanent.
There are really many many of them.


I am wondering, how do they even know that? An NDE is not permanent, it is but a glimpse, so how can these people know there is a permanent hell? Did someone tell them, and if so who?

The only way I can make sense of this statement is, that they might have meant that souls/spirits do in fact have free choice to be and remain in a negative, destructive, unloving state (aka "hell") permanently, if they don't have the strength or courage or wish to move out of it.
I alsow personaly have a big feeling about this that it cruel to be truth. But i think there are very strong argument against my feeling. If we are talking about Bible if you write in google "bible about hell" open first link and read quotes it is hard to not interpret what is written there another away that hell is permanent. For example "everlasting punishment". Well we cen divagate that meybe hell is permanent but no one has to be there forever. But i think that is overinterpretation.
Another problem is this that if someone is slave of the sin it is really hard to stop sinning. I alsow know people that are so overwhelm of sin of hate that absolutly nothing can not pull them avay from it. If you are talking about sodoms it alsow make me wonder where from the point of view of God begins sodomy. I have read that is hard to get rid of earthly sexual desires on the other side. So when we have young married couple for examle on their honeymoon and they accidently dies and on the other side because thay do not have earthly bodies they can not satisfy their needs do they need some form of purification? And it is hard to me to understand bible teachings about homosexsual persons. So maybe the permanentsy of hell is caused because some people are so overwelmed of sin that they can not stop sinning not because God is not good enough to forgive.
In a sense, it seems that you keep answering your own questions.

Why cant NDEers (or reincarnators for that matter) retain memories ?

Could it possibly just be because of the issue you cite?

Mainly, when necessary, we are provided the opportunity to try again. (This being part of the soul learning/evolutionary process.) The concept of an involuntary permanent lock into a "hell" obviates such notion.

Think about it. We are born here with no memories. Who we are/become is highly influenced by circumstance.

A slight adjustment even in you own brain chemistry Tadu, would make you a different person/a different outlook.

Who is responsible for that?
PS: Whatever happened to the idea that "we are all connected"?

If Dennis, Giulia or you (or anyone else for that matter) are permanently in hell, then so too eternally is part of me.
Greetings. I just read these posts today. From my own NDEs and life experiences, plus more Past, Present and Future memories than I can recount, not to mention the Pre-Life discussions and LBL states of Being: it was absolutely my understanding and recollection that "Hell" is what I call "Satan's School for Wayward Souls." He is a mean teacher, too. His Students are very smoky dark Intelligent Energy. They have little power, he tells them what roles they are to play and doesn't spend much time with them to prepare for the Life. (As opposed to Sorce's Guides/Teachers, who do put great effort into helping a Soul create the Life It wants) many NDErs have seen both the Light Beings and the Negative Polarity Spirits in the same area, with a project plan laid out on a table, discussing the project. The Light Beings are very uncomfortable around the Negative Polarity Beings. It is a Vibration issue. But they do work together! I know Satan well enough. If someone had told me ten years ago I would find myself an exoert on the Spirit World I'd have wondered what they'd been smoking. I was just a routine Christian, very devout. This is a School, much as I detest the notion. A polarity Integration Game. I realize famous Hypnotherapists insist there is no Devil and no Hell, but they are mistaken. They play the bad guys. He trains them. If those "demons" come to me, I call down their Angel and have them hauled back Home. Their life with their Infernal Master IS hellish. It's boring, dark, drab . . . Not The Source's exquisite world. Of you are an evil person and rack up those Negative energy points, that Debit card gets you downloaded into the Devil's school and he'll teach you good and proper! The Realm Of Light is serious about Soul education and evolution. But if you want to play the Earth Game well, knowing how to play video games helps. (I don't play video games.) I learned in the School of Hard Spooks what I know.
DennisMe wrote: I'd rather be out there saving poor sods from the flames of torment than warming myself at their expense.



That might be exactly what you ARE already doing, Dennis :F

Rey wrote: PS: Whatever happened to the idea that "we are all connected"?

If Dennis, Giulia or you (or anyone else for that matter) are permanently in hell, then so too eternally is part of me.


That's a very sweet and plain way of putting it, Rey. I second that.
Hello from Italy - How I found out about NDERF - A Strange Experience
17 posts Page 1 of 1

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

cron