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17 posts Page 1 of 1
Hi, Ask. Welcome. Could you please explain what you deem the "devil" to be, where it would get its power from and why it should "trick" people? That would help us to offer some comments about your enquiry! :)
Hello from Italy - How I found out about NDERF - A Strange Experience
Hi Ask,
that's one "hell" of a question to introduce yourself with ;-)

Actually you asked two very different questions.
1) are NDEs a trick of the devil. This question seems to imply that the answer to that applies equally to all NDEs.
2) whether the devil even has the ability to create such an experience.

I'm going to assume you mean the fabricated horny dude with the red face and goats legs which was merged with Christian doctrine to form some sort of anti-thesis to God and scare little children. Much like the witch in Hansl and Gretl, but with a bigger... um... attitude.
To get the answer you'd probably have to ask him (it?) personally, which I would not recommend. Word is, he has terribly bad breath.

You seem to assume that there is such a being as a devil. Now I know there are a handfull of NDE experiencers who say they saw the guy, and thousands of others who didn't (who therefore often assume he doesn't exist). I personally do think there are a number of evil spirits in existence, one of which may like to go by the title of prince of darkness among other even fouler names.
Now, that being said, I don't automatically believe all the hype that this entity has received. Particularly in evangelical Christian beliefs he seems to have become almost as powerful as God, instilling fear and inhibitions in people who are otherwise trying to live a virtuous life.

Whenever I notice something instilling fear in otherwise good people, the hairs on the back of my neck stand up and my palms start to sweat. If I've had too much coffee my heart may start to palpitate a bit. See, I really do believe that we have nothing to fear but fear itself. If any enemy instils fear, you are doomed, if a friend does the same its even worse. It works this way for soldiers who train countless hours, not to get good at shooting and throwing grenades, but to convince themselves that they can handle whatever happens. In short to subdue and conquer their own fears.

While I do believe there are evil entities lurking in the shadows of the universe, I have no fear of them whatsoever. You see, I believe that God is Love and Light, evil is just a lack of those. Outside of God there is nothing (technically I'm a panentheist; burn me at the stake if you will) so god created us more like him than different. We're like a drop of oil split off the big blob floating on an endless ocean of nothingness. We have free will. We can choose light or darkness by turning our backs to the light. This does not make the light go away, turn around and it's there, as it always was and always will be. Switch on a light and darkness is gone, but it doesn't work the other way around! Now, if we have free will to choose light or darkness then how could anyone who doesn't choose to, ever end up in hell? Another consequence is that if NDEs were a trick of the devil that would mean that this entity has the power to present anyone with a reality that is so real its realer than this life and fake at the same time. How could a person have free will in such a situation? You couldn't and this would make God an accomplice to the devil. It also means we're basically all doomed and God is going to have the satisfaction of warming his virtual feet over our smouldering ashes for ever and ever amen. But wait, what does that make God out to be? Bit of a perv, if you ask me! Which brings me to another important theological principle for me: "God is not an 4$$hole"! Any theology (or other stupid idea) that makes God into an, lets say 'less than savory' entity (let alone something worthy of the name God, with reverend capital) is bogus.

So we're back where we started, a Good God and our free will; ergo a devil has zero power except what we give it by our own free will.
Now this is me talking, I'm a quite liberal pastor and I can be shockingly irreverent at times. So there's that... Besides it means I don't believe that taking the bible literally is the only way to get to heaven because doing that makes God into a despotic tyrant which makes Adolf Hitler look like a friendly old chap by comparison. But If you are a cover to cover bible believing Christian then you will have to look at texts mentioning NDEs in the bible. There's the apostle Paul's experience on the road to Damascus (Acts 9:1) and John's visit to heaven in the Apocalypse (Rev 1:9) that I know of. Were they deceived? They evidently didn't think so themselves. The bible even has a guide for how to test the spirits. I recommend it, its actually very good.(1 John 4:1) And If it's right you have a very good set of criteria for discerning the truth of any particular NDE according to the Bible.

Hope this helps, Dennis
Hi Ask and thanks for asking ;)

I'm assuming that you have concerns that the Devil from the Christian bible may somehow be tricking people with NDES to lead them away from God? Well from my own personal near death experience it had the opposite effect. I felt closer to my Divine, had a real longing to return to Heaven, and be with the Creator when it is my time to cross over for good!

I have seen so many similar stories of people who had NDES like mine and came back with a similar message of Hope, Love, A Divine Force that is looking over us and wants us to come back home to Heaven when it is our time to cross over for good. I don't see how that kind of message would be beneficial to the devil since his main objective is to try to convince us to separate from the Divine, from Heaven and be our own God.

I understand that the term God means different things to different faiths that are out there, but I do not see how it can benefit the devil in any way to deceive them into thinking they had a NDE experience especially since their NDE experience almost always leaves them feeling closer to God and not further away.
Hey Philip, long time no see!

I think there's only a problem for biblical fundamentalists.

Fundamentalists tend to have a very rigid set of core dogma which MUST be believed in order to reach heaven. Miss one of these and you burn in hell forever (or so they believe). Although different denominations vary in which dogma they consider necessary. that is: issues on which ones' "getting to heaven" depends.

Because an all-loving and universally forgiving God directly contradicts the necessity of several of their dogmatic requirements they reject this idea of God. Further more there is only one other explanation left to them in their highly polarized view of ultimate reality. (ie: God vs the Devil). Ergo: NDEs in which people are convinced God is universally forgiving or unconditionally loving must be "of the Devil". Luckily some brave souls are lead to doubt the dogma in stead of Divine Love!

These dogma are a direct result of attempting to interpret biblical scripture in the most literal way they consider acceptable. Christians with more scientific underpinnings of their faith should not have a problem with NDEs, and will mostly reject the God vs Devil cosmology, so they have vastly more options for finding their explanations. This is due to their rejection of literalist interpretations of scripture, giving them greater "freedom of explanation" (including science).

Most literalist fundamentalists believe the two (NB: conflicting!) creation accounts in Genesis are historically correct.
This is actually somewhat of a complicated area.

I believe that the answer to OP's question is effectively "yes", but the whole discussion regarding the phenomenon is not simple as it is multi-dimensional (both physical & spiritual senses).

In ways, formal religion affiliations/institutions is one of the issues (and an important one).

For example, look at article featured on the "Report from Today" link (scrolling on the NDERF home page just under the NDERF header logo - ). It leads to presentation & discussion titled, "Do you believe? Near-death experience survivor recalls 'amazing' encounter."


What is warned by critical care physician and author of "Near Death in the I.C.U.", Dr Laurin Bellgis, is that NDE survivors often report in exquisite detail meeting "spiritual beings that actually fit their belief system." The implication is that if one has a belief in demonic entities (and/or hell), then a possibility is that the being (or experience) encountered is derived from the experiencer's own notions.

Basically what we have then is effectively a "Tulpa" ( https://www.tulpa.info/what-is-a-tulpa/ ) that has emanated out of an "Egregore."

Religions are instrumental in development and maintenance of "Egregores" ( http://www.chaosmatrix.org/library/chaos/texts/gegregor.html ).

Again, this is a complicated matter to discuss (at least for me) as it is multi-dimensional & has many facets involving spiritual levels/domains and the nature of consciousness.

I'm not prepared to go much further than to say, read the "NBC Today's NDE special" article.
There are some strange compulsive energies about in this world while living it...i have had a couple of experiences that have left me with concerns and questions.....but in all my time out of it i have never had a problem except of my own making.

True...my guides wasted litttle time protecting me and showing me techniques to leave the astral because i suspect that there are weird energies about there also.

But no...no Nde obe or other such is created for you by anyone or anything.

What you come across once you are in astral form...or what you come across while in human form...oh well...thats another question.
I'm very glad to hear that you ruled out God as a source of deception! I'm rather fond of God myself ;-)
Here again the problem is that its all very personal and again it depends mostly on what you already believe to be true about God and Satan, "life, the universe and everything"...

I can't possibly go into all variations of possible belief systems in this answer but there are some general hints I can give.

I get the impression from some of your other posts that you consider the bible useful as a guideline on God at the very least. There are some tips from the Bible on spiritual matters.

1 Thess. 5 v 19-22 (regarding prophecy: do not quench the spirit, hold on to what is good, reject what is not)

Mat. 7 v 15-20 (a tree is known by its fruit)

Matt 7 is the touchstone to me. Look at the way that NDErs in general tend to become more spiritual, more accepting and more loving than they were before. These are the good fruits ( they are obviously fruits of Love) so the "tree" must be good too. Now Mat 7 goes on to talk about deception, but that is very much in the context of the verses I quoted. That is, the dire warnings against deception are not meant to negate the aforesaid, but they expound on it! They are meant to make to make a point that knowing the good fruit is very important. What I mean is that the following verses (21, 22) should not be cut loose and taken on equal footing with verses 15-20. What those verses mean is that it is paramount to remember that by the fruits you will know the tree. Otherwise the next verses will apply and you may be deceived. Too often I see people pitting these verses against each other as if we were talking about a level playing field between Good and Evil, God and the Devil. Believe me, there is not, there never was, and there never will be a level playing field, they are not in the same league (Remember the chasm in the story of Lazarus).
I'll go a step further and say it is profoundly un-biblical to propose a powerful satanic force pitted against God! The only power Evil has is what is given it by us. If we invest our fears into the devil or evil they feed off them and grow. Not because they were powerful or even influential to begin with but because we give them our power. Much like electing a bad president or the way we collectively 'make or break' celebrities in general. There's nothing special about any celebrity that makes them what they are, its the emotion invested into them by their followers and even by their detractors that makes them grow out of all proportions and sets them on a pedestal, lands them advertising contracts and on-air-time etc.

Mark 3 v 20 (a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand) is also another example that shows that the test of the fruit above is valid. I believe there is a cosmic law behind this. Stated simply God is Love. To me God is not only Love, he is the one and only pure Source of All Love. There simply is no love in the 'lower realms' therefore it cannot be used even for deception. If someone were to pose as a doctor and have no real medicine, wouldn't the patients soon all get sick and die? You'd see the fruits of their deception, sickness and death, instead of health and increased well-being. Such a "doctor" would soon be exposed as a fraud and locked away. So I believe it is with evil, sure the Devil will deceive because he has no truth on offer, sure he will lie and cheat, kill and maim, steal and rape, destroy the environment and make a lot of noise, because he has no Love to give.

God bless you all!
Dennis, Thanks. You have the ability to put it all together. I love that.
DennisMe wrote: I'll go a step further and say it is profoundly un-biblical to propose a powerful satanic force pitted against God! The only power Evil has is what is given it by us. If we invest our fears into the devil or evil they feed off them and grow. Not because they were powerful or even influential to begin with but because we give them our power.

Thanks for this great reminder, Dennis! Checking and analysing how we invest our thoughts, emotions, expectations and feelings could be a great way of instantly improving our lives and surroundings.
Hello from Italy - How I found out about NDERF - A Strange Experience
Ask21771 wrote: Look your explanation of "ndes make people better" isn't good enough any serious Christian would look at that and say it helps make Satan's lies that much more convincing, you need to prove why logically it's impossible for ndes to be satanic deceptions

Being just a member of this forum I would like to tell you that I resent your attitude myself to the other members of the forum. If you aren't satisfied with the information you are getting here you are more than welcome to ( i will use the words ) Leave instead of what wording I would normally use to someone such as yourself who seems to think that you have the right to speak so authoritatively . . . . to the others who come here for their enjoyment and enjoyment.

As for your statement " you need to prove why logically it's impossible for ndes to be satanic deceptions

Nobody here needs to PROVE shit to you, someone who feels they are superior to other members and feels he has the right to treat others with such disrespect.

I think you want to be very grateful that I am trying very hard to control what I would really like to call you but have more respect for the other members than you seem capable of showing

So if you don't like it why don't you just ..........................!

Why Am I Here

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Ask21771 wrote: Lashing out at me isn't a good way to get your point across

I am not lashing out at you.

I am expressing my opinion of how I perceive your attitude to be.

I couldn't care less about what you want someone to prove to you. I am simply expressing that if you can't speak with common courtesy you will find out what it is like to be spoken to in the same tone as what you are using to the other members.

Why Am I Here

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Ask21771 wrote: Look you're explanation of "ndes make people better" isn't good enough any serious christian would look at that and say it helps make Satan's lies that much more convincing, you need to prove why logically it's impossible for ndes to be satanic deceptions

I don't know what you mean by "serious Christian" and, by the way, this is not a Christian message board, it is a non-denominal online discussion site, designed to support research and study of consciousness experiences, such as near death experiences and other spiritually transformative experiences, support experiencers and spread the message of love, unity and peace around the world.

What I have found that NDEs do is that they act as a reminder of the fact that love is the essence, love is the key, and that if you are nasty to Garry or to any other members who have been kindly offering answers to your question and indirectly offend members who are simply reading the thread, you are being nasty to yourself. NDEs tend to offer first-hand experience that by harming somebody else, you are harming yourself. If you do not understand that logically, with all that has been offered to you in terms of advice and biblical references, then maybe you could start by re-reading the whole thread and, once you have read it, take a day or two and try and be kind to other people and see what happens.

Who knows, maybe you will get your own personal evidence that being kind and nice to others, is like being nice and kind to yourself.
Hello from Italy - How I found out about NDERF - A Strange Experience
Ask, I see no further reason to continue trying to help you. You only seem to be interested in proving your own prejudice. My efforts are obviously wasted in the face of such bigotry and my energy is best invested elsewhere.
May you find the Love and Truth you seek and may they give you the Peace you so desperately need.
Ask...I can be quite blunt at times, too. I do find you to be abrasive, and so, have shied away from this discussion.
In my experience with the forums of old and these types of discussions (where someone insists upon 'proof' where their desires for proof are never quenchable) they always turn nasty and are not productive.

I have to question why you seem to give so much power to the evil one. I try very hard not to mention him or let him into my world. As a believer in Christ I have no room for evil. I know it exists and have found that if I give it a place to grow, it will; therefore, I try to only allow love to enter my space. Maybe, you should try something like that as well.
This will be all I have to say about this, as I find the discussion to be very adversive. (I don't know if that is a word, but, it works for me).
Ask, you have already received all the help you need. You simply appear to be having a hard time recognizing it as such.
I think you have deep seated trust issues and I recommend you talk to a psychologist. You may be able to find a Christian psychologist, they do exist! This is not me trying to be a smart-ass, I mean it. The level of fear you have for evil influence is not healthy, it will destroy your life if left unaddressed. Get help, asap.
Hello Ask. No pun intended whatsoever but if I may respectfully ask - why are you so focused on Satan? What are you so frightened of? Just a suggestion, again with all due respect - have you considered taking your concerns to a Catholic Priest?

Much Peace and Blessings to you....
What is a Shih Tzu? "A dash of Lion, several teaspoons of Rabbit, a couple ounces of old Chinese men, a bit of Beggar,
a tablespoon of Monkey, one part Baby Seal, and a dash of Teddy Bear."
~ James E. Mumford

Ask...i think in this gestalt experience.....what you see is what you get.

So as has been said above by Ano...focus on what you want in your life and you will get just that.

If it makes you a better, calmer, more fulfilled person...able to deal with all the challenges you create to help this little you grow...and your life is sunshine, smiles and laughter..... and your actions reflect the you that you are.....then you have the answer.

If on the other hand you chose to see scary mind altering confusing doubt filled alternatives..... then you need to search through yourself and go through the questions you will be faced with...and eventually...this life, next life...the one after.... you will understand that its all energy at the heart. Energy that can be interpreted any way one wants. Energy. Unclassifiable pure loving energy. So loving that it allows any interpretation to be used for love of you. To show you that at the end...love endures, holds...remains. The eye (i) is the beholder and the creator.

Satan is just the emotions exploding with confusion and the fear ... making you think there is something when actually...nix there. within the love and light.....what remains when all is known is love.

We all have that. We all do look at that at some point in our becoming years ...particularly the teen years when all hell breaks lose and all fears and possibilities break open....and when ready we gravitate elsewhere. Some people get a bit stuck there for longer...well ok... its a detour...enjoy the scene. You are fascinated by the emotion whirlpool. Thats all it is...emotions. Go on and dive deep. Get fascinated. Whats the hurry?

Looking for company to feel emotions through another by hoping to trigger others because you are becoming bored?

If you want to experience fear and confusion...limits and uncertainty.... then do it. Feel the emotion. Scare yourself silly imagining everything you want. Examine every minute aspect of your fear. Try and find where it hides in you. Eventually you will come to a point where ...having travelled that far east you get to west! Having dug down to the bottom of the fear ridden barrel looking for something that just doest exist....an emotional projection that cant sustain itself. You will one day grow bored of using up all your energy to sustain being dark, afraid and anxious of your own shadow....it gets boring and tedious.....terribly short lived, demanding more time and more energy to find new things to rekindle and sustain it.....you give it up....you will reach the light. Its that simple.

You ain't gonna miss out! All roads ...including satanic detours....lead to love and light and home!
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