re: History Channel - Bible & Women

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Jody
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re: History Channel - Bible & Women

Post by Jody » Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:06 pm

The history channel had an interesting documentary about the early Christians. There were hundreds of different books and Christian gospels prior to the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD. The Council chose the books contained in the Bible of today based on what would unite the many Christian groups and what would give the newly formed church the most authority.

The current version of the creation story of Adam and Eve shows women coming from Adams rib. As such, this story has been used as a basis for gender bias. Some have gone so far as to say that because woman was created second, that women must obey their husbands, etc.

But, what is really interesting is one of the books that didn't make it into the Bible as we currently know it. One of the books talks about Adam and Lillith being created at the same time from the earth. When Adam tried to get Lillith to obey him, she refused. She uttered the sacred name of God which was not to be uttered. But when she did utter the word, it gave her so much power that she flew to the heavens. She refused to come back. So, God gave Adam a second wife that he created from the ribs.

It is widely admitted and observable that the early Christians, Jews, or Muslims wanted to have women equal with men. Thankfully this is changing. With NDEs, gender is never an issue. In fact many times, spiritual entities on the other side are genderless. . .



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Re: re: History Channel - Bible & Women

Post by LifeReview » Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:14 pm

Thank you Jody. That is interesting information. I'd be curious what that show was called.

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Re: re: History Channel - Bible & Women

Post by tony123 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:38 am

HELLO Jody. Here it is a feedback conveying some basics on the fact Souls are intrinsically genderless.
There have been systems of religion where the mother is the prior parent-the source and she's more immediate a parent than the father. The first experience of any infant. And the image of the woman is the image of the world. We might say that mythology is the translation of the world into a mother image, the earth and so forth...But what happened along the way about the reverence in primitive societies towards the great goddess-the mother earth? What happened to that? -That comes in primarily with the agricultural societies- the fertility issue. The woman gives birth, as the earth gives birth to the plants. She gives nourishment as plants do. So the woman magic and the earth magic are the same. The personification of this energy which gives birth to forms and nourishes these forms is female. And so is in the agricultural world of ancient Tigres and Euphrates culture, the egyptian Nile and in the earlier planting culture systems the goddess is the mythic forma that is dominant.Because of this various perception of creation, of fertility- you have the goddess as the creator. That has their own very body as the universe. She is identical with the universe. In Egypt you have the mother of heavens-Nut. that represents the whole heavenly sphere. So it would be natural for people to try and explain the wonders of the universe to look for the female figure as the explanation for what they saw in their own lives.And there you move to a philosophical point of view the female represents what Kant in terms would call -forms of sensibility. The female represents time and space- and the mystery beyond her is beyond the pair of opposites ,so you don't have male and female anymore- but everything is in her and the gods are her children. Everything you can think of , everything you can see is the production of the goddess.There's a wonderful story -the Vedas gods are togetherr and they see something strange, sort of something without form like a kind of smoky fog. And they ask= 'What is that?'- I don't know what it is and Agni-the god of fire-says- 'I will go and find out what that is'. And he got by that smoky thing and asks= 'Who are you?'- And from the smoky thing a voice asks= 'Who are you?'= 'I am Agni- I am the Lord of Fire- I can burn anything.' And out of the fog there comes a piece of straw that falls on the ground and says= 'Let's see you burn that.'- 'You cannot burn that'. He can't and he says= 'Very strange!' And Vayu- the God of Winds says= 'I will try.' And the same thing happened= 'I can blow anything around.' And the straw falls the the voice says= 'Blow that.'= Now he cannot. Then a woman arrives- a beautiful mysterious mystic woman arrives. She instructs the gods and tells then who that is.

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Re: re: History Channel - Bible & Women

Post by tony123 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:44 am

Instead of saying in our prayers= 'Our Father' we started with 'Our Mother' =What psychological difference it would be made?The basic psychogically differences in the character of the cultures. You have the basic birth of the Middle East civilization in the great river valleys-The Nile, Tigres and Euphrates and in the whole of India The Indus and Ganges and this is the world of the goddesses. All these rivers have goddess' names finally. And there comes the invasions, the Semitic people, the shepherds with their goats and sheep. And the hindu-european cattle breeders- they were formerly the hunters. They translated the hunting mythology into a herding mythology-but animal oriented. And when you have hunters you have killers. And when you have 'herds' you have killers because they are always in movement. Nomads that come into conflict with other people to conquer new areas they move into. And this comes into the Middle East. And this brings in the warrior gods like Zeus, Jehovah- the sword and death instead of fertility. Particularly the Hebrews they really wiped off the godesses. They transformed the goddess image -in the Old Testament the goddesses were called 'the abomination'. There was a strong accent against the goddess in the Hebrew that you do not find in the Hindu-Europeans- You have the god Zeus marrying the goddess and they are seen playing together. I think it is an extreme case that we have in the biblical thinking. Because when you substitute the male for the female you've got a different psychology. You've got the female out -the male is on top, the female is subordinate all the way. You have a totally different system when you have the two of them facing each other. Your culture will do what the gods do. 

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Re: re: History Channel - Bible & Women

Post by tony123 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:46 am

We've got 3 situations= the earlier one is when the goddess is the total divinity. The other one is of the Hebrew when the god is the total thing. He takes over her role. And the third one is when the two are in interaction.There are women today that say that the spirit of the goddess has been in exile for five thousand years. You can't put it that way it fell down back for 5 thous. years. It was a very powerful figure in Helenistic times in the Mediterranean. It came back with the virgin in the Roman Catholic tradition. You don't have a tradition in which the goddess was celebrated in any more beautifully and marvellously way than in 12 and 13 Centuries in French Cathedrals. All of them called Notre Dame. And suddenly the goddess reappeared as chaste and pure chosen vessel for god's action. Through the history of western religions it is an interesting development. The virgin birth comes through the Greek tradition. In the 4 Godspells the only one with the virgin birth is the Godspell of Luke and Luke was Greek. In the Greek tradition there were legends of virgin's birth. All of them=Leda and the Swan, Persefone and the Serpent. They all represented the virgin birth. What's the meaning of virgin birth? In India they have the system of 'Kundalini'...

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Re: re: History Channel - Bible & Women

Post by LifeReview » Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:30 pm

Tony

You've got a lot of interesting ideas there! Maybe you should be a writer, or organize your thoughts into an essay series? I would advise you to break your ideas into more paragraphs so that readers can follow the ideas more clearly. A rule I try to follow is: one main idea = one paragraph.

I agree with some of what you are saying about god and gender attitude: It has changed over time. I think the Hindu tradition has many elements that fit NDE experience well, especially the idea of a timeless divine Unmanifested Space, and reincarnation.

The NDE is great because it is experienced. That is why I call it Empircal Spirituality. :geek:

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Re: re: History Channel - Bible & Women

Post by tony123 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 9:45 pm

Misha

i only do obes and meditation. Although i am graduated in Letters i have never had gifts for writing neither producing essays. All i did was a transcript i made a long time ago from a VCR by BBC i once purchased. So it is a transcript from someone i do not recall. After posting i regretted having done. I was giving myself time to investigate on the internet on who spoke what i posted so that justice could be made. Anyway as a site admin. feel free to delect my posts if they are out of topic or misplaced. I appreciate your technical advices ever. .

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Re: re: History Channel - Bible & Women

Post by tony123 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:01 pm

The NDE is great because it is experienced. That is why I call it Empircal Spirituality.Misha

I think not only NDEs are great but also OBEs. I believe in empirical spirituality product of chakra meditation with the use of subliminal messages binaural beats respiratory exercises mudras bandhas in a word from all technology human beings have acquired in the course of time. I only do not condone the use of ahauaska alcohol marijuana etc. But if someone wants to use those use them at least 30 miles away from me.

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Re: re: History Channel - Bible & Women

Post by Garry » Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:46 am

Jody wrote:The history channel had an interesting documentary about the early Christians. There were hundreds of different books and Christian gospels prior to the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD. The Council chose the books contained in the Bible of today based on what would unite the many Christian groups and what would give the newly formed church the most authority.

The current version of the creation story of Adam and Eve shows women coming from Adams rib. As such, this story has been used as a basis for gender bias. Some have gone so far as to say that because woman was created second, that women must obey their husbands, etc.

But, what is really interesting is one of the books that didn't make it into the Bible as we currently know it. One of the books talks about Adam and Lillith being created at the same time from the earth. When Adam tried to get Lillith to obey him, she refused. She uttered the sacred name of God which was not to be uttered. But when she did utter the word, it gave her so much power that she flew to the heavens. She refused to come back. So, God gave Adam a second wife that he created from the ribs.

It is widely admitted and observable that the early Christians, Jews, or Muslims wanted to have women equal with men. Thankfully this is changing. With NDEs, gender is never an issue. In fact many times, spiritual entities on the other side are genderless. . .


With this Posting I would like to bring up and start another topic called stories...........................


You can find the new TOPIC here called ............Stories.......

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Re: re: History Channel - Bible & Women

Post by tony123 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:46 pm

@Garry

Topics on religion are to be dealth with great care not to hurt sensibilities. This is not our goal here. People tend to get extremely suspicious and vulnerable mainly when scriptures from christianity are envolved. I consider myself christian for love and respect for Jesus Christ our Savior for the example of love He left us and His ministery of understanding. I dare not combat the old testament. I only try to answer to the golden order of love and forgivenness i relate to Christ s words and try to forget the rest. Religion aside (relief) what i found relevant in the text i transcripted was the dichotomic attitute towards women between warrior cultures and agri cultures. I defend women cause i have lots of she friends teachers i have my 4 sisters i have my mother my 3 daughters my ex and someone i m going out as a date. I would not like them to suffer bias for being from the female gender. The topic is worn out and done. I agree to change the subject and i thank you for your understanding.

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Re: re: History Channel - Bible & Women

Post by CathyK » Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:19 am

The premise: 'Essentially we are all genderless' is an interesting point for discussion.

Many NDErs report the presence of a spirit which they strongly 'feel' is Male, or perhaps, Female. Since we are all created out of the same stuff as God/Source which has no gender then, essentially, we have no gender either. In a non-physical life there is no physical breeding. Christ said, 'There is no marriage in heaven'. If we have our human & cultural expectations still deeply inculcated within our psyche when we die, might we not carry these over into the non-material, spiritual life? As we progress into that non-material life, perhaps we are then able to lay aside gender and other human aspects of our existence which are no longer needed.

From a historical/anthropological point of view, in a nutshell, 'Fertility', seemingly a female thing, was of supreme importance and therefore represented by goddesses. As civilizations became established & societies more structured it became necessary to exercise control over women to limit their power over men. The flow of 'progress' is uneven and, although Society evolves, we don't have gender equality in any human society - yet. And maybe we shan't ever have it in the physical world.

Jody referred to the many parts of the Bible which were rejected, I think by the Bishop of Lyon, c AD 340 (?), to try to bring unity & conformity to the early Christian Churches. It was at that point that, Mary the mother of Jesus, became venerated as a quasi Goddess with powers to intercede with Jesus and the Godhead on humanity's behalf. Her virginity, not an issue prior to the Council of Nicea (?), thenceforth became a tenet of faith.

Many of the testaments of various disciples, which were not destroyed but hidden away, after the Council of Nicea's edicts, were found in a cave in Nag Hammadi in southern Egypt around the mid-20th century (?) In these texts - one written by Mary Magdalen, also a follower of Jesus - show that women, although a minority in the group around Jesus, were recognised as influential individuals in their own right. Peter is even shown to be critical of the 'favouritism' Jesus had for Mary Magdalen. I think the sisters Martha & Mary helped finance Jesus and his disciples. As for the Old Testament, some women were treated as chattels, whilst others had influential and powerful positions.

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Re: re: History Channel - Bible & Women

Post by tony123 » Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:01 am

i much appreciated your clarification on such a theme that can bring about misunderstanding. i liked your reply so much, Cathy that i managed to paste it and i had it copied, saving it on my documents together with brainy posts on religion and correlate issues. Thank you very much.

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Re: re: History Channel - Bible & Women

Post by Marguy » Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:41 am

Maybe I can add some information. The first books of the old Testament, had been traded orally for a very long time before they have been put down in written form. The very first part of it 'the genesis' , when it talks about creation of the earth, it also talked about gods spirit floating over the waters, and in the Hebrew language the spirit of God is of female gender. So God is not only male in the old Testament.
The Adam and Eve story text, consists of a weaving of stories of at least two different authors, one which calls that God created the humans, and that he created them as male and female, the second one gives this more detailed story of Eve coming from Adams rib. By the way Adam means 'he man' and Eve means 'she man'. Difficult to translate otherwise to English. But they have been weaved together to form one single account.
Above details only for clarification.
The problem with all the holy books is, that once the texts are put down, then the holiness of the book is prohibiting any new interpretation, as it is declared as Gods Words by its possessors.

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Re: re: History Channel - Bible & Women

Post by CathyK » Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:05 pm

Thanks for your posts Tony & Marguy:

Personally, I can't wholly accept the Old Testament as the literal truth from God, but rather the writings, (albeit, perhaps,divinely inspired), of a people whose society had coalesced to a point where the notion of a Godhead had become a necessity. As you say, Marguy, for a very long time it was a verbal tradition. This necessity for it being in written form had partly come about because the innate spiritual selves of these socially evolving peoples recognised a Creator must indeed exist - and, for their leaders, because rituals, religious practices and the setting down of 'laws ordained by God' were necessary for organised and civilised society.
Enough of that.

Marguy, are you French? If so, where in France are you from?
Tony, are you Portuguese? If so, where in Portugal are you from?
Are you going to fix your Avatars now that the problem has been fixed?

CathyK

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Re: re: History Channel - Bible & Women

Post by dnix71 » Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:23 pm

The Torah is a special book. I do Torah code slides on people (usually deceased). There are elaborate pictures encoded in the book. http://www.bible-codes.org/index.htm#bible-code-site

God Himself spoke the book to Moses. This isn't some collective fairy tale. http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Articl ... torah.html There is commentary in the oral tradition, also begun by God Himself at the same time.

We are living time backwards. God says in Isaiah 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.'

You cannot predict the future from Torah codes because people are presented with choices in life and only God knows which choice will be taken.

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Re: re: History Channel - Bible & Women

Post by Marguy » Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:31 am

Hi Cathy
I'm not French I'm from the Grand-Duchy of Luxembourg, Europe, I'm a Luxembourger. Living in a small village close to the City of Luxembourg. My religious background is Christian catholic, but since quite some time I'm not practicing anymore. This doesn't mean that I'm not believing anymore. But due to our deceased Priest we got real good information about the time of the very first Christians, as he had studied this thoroughly. He knew the old Hebrew, Latin and Greek languages and so he was able to give us a lot of insights into the historical time of Jesus and the Jewish people.
;)

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Re: re: History Channel - Bible & Women

Post by CathyK » Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:45 am

Dnix71, I read a couple of books on the Bible Code, maybe 12-15 years ago. I remember the codes were discovered in the 1920s (?) when it was noticed by a Rabbi that the Hebrew glyphs exposed when the scrolls of the Torah were wound around the two ‘wooden scroll holders’ which held them. I’m sure I’ve got this mostly wrong, but seeing you write about the subject makes me want to have another look at it. My daughter is married to an Israeli, and he told me that the Bible codes were a ‘fad’ based on nothing substantial. A few years later I gave a couple of hundred books to a local charity – these two among them – because they were taking up too much space.

[/quote]We are living time backwards. God says in Isaiah 46:10Open in Logos Bible Software (if available) I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.'[quote]


This is something I want to look at. Thank you for pointing it out dnix71

Yes, I remember God spoke to Moses from the burning bush, then went up the mountain to collect the 10 commandments. I didn’t know that he dictated the bible to Moses - as far as Moses presumably.

I don’t have religious beliefs which are cast in stone – I find all aspects of theology extremely interesting - but I respect your beliefs and those of others with sincerely & strongly held beliefs.

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Re: re: History Channel - Bible & Women

Post by CathyK » Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:49 am

Hi Marguy!

As you translate the French NDEs, it's your first language then? I've never been to Luxembourg, (I used to listen to Radio Luxembourg in the early 1960s!), but I love France and the French language.

I was a Catholic and went to school in a Convent. I don't practice anymore, nor have I since I left school.

CathyK

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Re: re: History Channel - Bible & Women

Post by tony123 » Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:21 am

Tony, are you Portuguese? If so, where in Portugal are you from? Cathyk

No, i am brazilian, living in a town called Patos de Minas, Minas Gerais State, Southern Brazil.

kardecist spiritism has spread all over Brazil and had long become part of the religious syncretism which characterizes the brazilian culture.
Of course that the Catholic church contributes in furnishing the religious basic framework since we have been colonized by Portugal, we have inheritted Roman Christian moral code, in a word, not differently from Western culture regarding christianity
Kardecist spiritism also adopted a christian oriented moral basis contradictly either approaching to presbiterians debunking the images and ritual and differing deeply as long as kardecist spiritists do believe in reincarnation while Evangelists repel that concept as a real heresy and demon like thing.
By the way the spirits in Kardec's code denied the possibility that God-Creator could have created an entity originally devoted to evilness, but Kardecism states the existence of evil spirits who disrespecting the cosmic law would be subject to suffering in crucial existences to come. In a word it's best to be a victim than a perpetrator.
Besides kardecism our religious culture includes Afro-indian shaman cults as AUMBHANDAN and CANDONBLE.
Brazil is the land of unusual phenomena, for sure.

Are you going to fix your Avatars now that the problem has been fixed? Cathyk

Yes.

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Re: re: History Channel - Bible & Women

Post by Marguy » Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:44 pm

Hi Cathy,
We speak Luxembourgish, which is a German based language. I'm speaking Luxembourgish, French, German and English. We had to learn all those languages in school.
First school year we start with German, second school year we start also French, and at high school comes English. Our school system is very strongly based on foreign languages as we are a very small country, between France and Germany and Belgium and a lot of foreign people are coming daily to work in Luxembourg.
It's not so easy as a child, but once you have them, then it's a real gift for life. So I was able to find the NDERF homepage and volunteer for translation, as I think it's important that many people worldwide should be able to read the NDE's,OBE's, etc..
Greetings
Marguy

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Re: re: History Channel - Bible & Women

Post by Marguy » Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:06 am

back to the topic.
There are some questions regarding the biblical stories.
First one: Does the Bible contain the Word of God? and my answer is: Yes
Second one: Do we have to take the texts literally? and my answer is: No
Now how is this going together?

Well, through the translations of the NDE's I came to the conclusion, that human beings are not really able, to translate the information they received in their experiences, into human words or languages. They try to do it, but they mostly claim that words are inadequate to explain what happened to them.
And as the biblical texts are based on experiences that human beings had with the divine, and then been traded orally over long periods, we can assume that they also are only trials to explain what was conveyed to them.
But the message that is coming through both sources is the same.
Love each other, Love the source, help each other, you are all children of the same provenience, you are all loved and cherished, and the stories in the bible, help to make this message available. This doesn't mean that we should consider them as fairy tales, as they are also partly historical information of those times, about historical figures, and their beliefs and experiences. If we stick to the written word then we loose a very important part of the message, and that's the part that concerns us and our today's questions.

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Re: re: History Channel - Bible & Women

Post by dnix71 » Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:58 pm

Cathy God dictated to Moses, but Moses had a scribe, Joshua. These aren't repeated oral stories. People back then were not primitive. They built pyramids that still stand. The Great Wall of China can be seen from space. The codes are not a fad but a good use is to confirm that God knew the end from the beginning. The code pictured below is an example of what can happen when you live like the Devil.

McCready took her older son Zander from her mother and the boy's legal guardian, Gayle Inge, in late 2011. She fled to Arkansas without permission over what she called child abuse fears. Authorities eventually found McCready hiding in a residence without permission and took the boy into custody.

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/20 ... t-suicide/

The major details of the end of her life are described with brutal accuracy in her Torah life slide. Note what God is telling Israel in the verses where her first name appears.
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Re: re: History Channel - Bible & Women

Post by dnix71 » Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:22 pm

Here is a Torah Code slide of a woman I went to high school with. Darline was murdered by a habitual drunk driver in Texas while on station at Webb Air Base. She saved the motorcycle driver she was passenger on because they were hit from behind and her body took the major force of the collision. Note the verses where her first name appears. "Poured out like a strong drink offering."
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Re: re: History Channel - Bible & Women

Post by CathyK » Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:51 pm

i am brazilian, living in a town called Patos de Minas, Minas Gerais State, Southern Brazil.

kardecist spiritism has spread all over Brazil and had long become part of the religious syncretism which characterizes the brazilian culture.
Of course that the Catholic church contributes in furnishing the religious basic framework since we have been colonized by Portugal, we have inheritted Roman Christian moral code, in a word, not differently from Western culture regarding christianity
Kardecist spiritism also adopted a christian oriented moral basis contradictly either approaching to presbiterians debunking the images and ritual and differing deeply as long as kardecist spiritists do believe in reincarnation while Evangelists repel that concept as a real heresy and demon like thing.
By the way the spirits in Kardec's code denied the possibility that God-Creator could have created an entity originally devoted to evilness, but Kardecism states the existence of evil spirits who disrespecting the cosmic law would be subject to suffering in crucial existences to come. In a word it's best to be a victim than a perpetrator.
Besides kardecism our religious culture includes Afro-indian shaman cults as AUMBHANDAN and CANDONBLE.
Brazil is the land of unusual phenomena, for sure.
Hello Tony, I am sorry for not responding to this, I have only just seen it! (I must remember to tick the box 'Notify me when a reply is posted')
Brazil certainly is a melting pot of religions & cults. I can now see why there is such a distinctive cultural flavour emanating from your country - although I had never heard of Kardecist Spiritism, Aumbhandan or Candonble - the rigid Presbyterianism of Scotland would seem to sit awkwardly within this melange of colourful beliefs.

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Re: re: History Channel - Bible & Women

Post by CathyK » Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:05 pm

Hello Marguy - I am responding to your 20th post on 3rd March! It's extraordinary that I have never heard of Luxembourgish! But since it is similar to German and French I may be able to pick it up fairly easily. I'm always trying to improve my French which I learned in school, and my husband (father of my daughters) was German so, although I didn't learn that language in a formal way, I am familiar enough with it to 'get by' in Germany.
I will look for examples of Luxembourgish speech - maybe on Youtube!
Hat bald
A bientot
Cathy

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Re: re: History Channel - Bible & Women

Post by CathyK » Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:47 pm

Hello dnix
I missed several of the posts on this topic by not clicking on 'inform me when there is a post on this topic - and, unfortunately I missed your last couple of posts. I have become re-intrigued by these Bible codes all over again. It seems a bit like being able to google yourself! You will have searched your own name, just like Mcready and Darlene, of course. Did you find yours correct?

Cathy

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Re: re: History Channel - Bible & Women

Post by dnix71 » Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:15 pm

Mine is this one. I was born in February, and in a hospital called Saint Josephs.' Joseph's month is now March, but there has been a drift in the Zodiac. The Romulean calendar didn't have January or February, those were added later.

The hbomb reference is troubling. I lived next door to a man who died 2 years ago of Parkinson's. He lived in Hialeah during the Cold War and worked for Eastern AL as an engine mechanic. My father did flightline service on B52's during the Cold War and was at MacDill when a nuke slipped off the forklift and landed on the tarmac. The Eastern mechanics' life slide nowhere mentions hbomb, so the reference must be a future possibility.

A girlfriend from hs and college has the same word (hbomb) in the same place. She now lives in Albuquerque near Sandia Laboratory and has friends that work there. The word I am translating hbomb could simply mean "light" or "hydrogen" but the manner of a person's death appears in slides where that word is, so I'm guessing that a nuclear war is still a possibility.
DavidNixslide1.jpg
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Re: re: History Channel - Bible & Women

Post by CathyK » Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:02 am

Good morning dnix71 - May we now call you 'David' ? :-)

Cathy

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