Animal representation in NDES, do animals persist?

[NDERFUSER]

New member here, I have been interested in this topic since I discovered it.

The main question I have which prompted me to make the account (mostly directed towards the site owners or anyone who has studied many cases) - Where we see patterns in NDE stories repeat with common threads across mulitple tellings, is there any consensus on how animals relate to all of this? What is an animal soul/spirit in relation to a human one (or to this collected oneness that it frequently reported). Would things like meat-eating or animal cruelty haunt a person in a life review in the same way cruelty to a person might? Are there telepathic links with animals reported in the same way that telepathy is reported to be the form of communication in the afterlife. Any other info around this topic (or indeed plants)!?

Ultimately the most selfish question is "would I be re-united with my cat, if I died"?

Thanks in advance, if anyone has knowledge on this and can reply.

[DTR1975]

Absolutely they do. I wondered the same question myself. I've come across dozens of NDEs with people who met their pets during their experiences. Check out our previous thread about it:
Do Our Pets Go to Heaven?

[Giulia]

Welcome to the forum, NDERFUSER.

I have just read Jan Price’s NDE Account and thought you might be interested in reading it, in view of your interest for animals. This is a very interesting account: regarding your query about life reviews, it touches on guilt and explains a lot about it.

You will also find references to animals and plants in the Afterlife in the thread: Sphere Model of the Afterlife and in the Afterlife Forum in general.

[NDERFUSER]

Thanks for the replies and links, looking forward to doing some reading into this over the next little while. Just to clarify on my reasoning a little:

I suppose the parts I'm having trouble reconciling for now is when it comes to things like co-creation, consciousness and the like - what is created out of our own imaginations and what is not and really where do non-humans with sentience fit into this (indeed aliens could join the discussion if we had more direct experience of them and if we don't hold the belief that they are our own source in a different incarnation).

For example where people say they have met pets after dying, my initial hunch would be that it's projection, like how the post-life experiences are different for each person (again probably due to their projecting their version of reality onto the experience).

So in which case there is this material of sorts call "soul" or "consciousness" or is it different for other beings? Is a dog a soul that has chose that life for the experience (as is commonly implied with our human life's being some kind of pre-planned course that we set for ourselves). Or do we (in this life) have justifiable dominion over the beasts due to their being either a lesser form of consciousness or creations of our own design (as opposed to co-inhabitants which would extrapolate out to me that we should extend similar rights as we do with humans due to recognizing their sentience, not that I'm a vegetarian currently etc)...

Was Schrödinger's cat really neither here nor there (before opening the box) in more literal terms than we are used to describing currently, or was the cat always there because it decided prior to being born that it needed the experience of living with Schrödinger???

Plants - along same lines although obviously it's harder to wrap our heads around this. But if true of plants, then "life feeds on life" really is inescapable which brings us back to the old-timer mentality of "animals are just a resource to be exploited".


Thanks all!

[DTR1975]

"Plants - along same lines although obviously it's harder to wrap our heads around this. But if true of plants, then "life feeds on life" really is inescapable which brings us back to the old-timer mentality of "animals are just a resource to be exploited"."

I have considered this myself, and have come up empty. There may not be any answers on this side of the veil. But I know that animals have feelings, so I try to treat them with as much love and compassion as I can.

[NDERFUSER]

Re: feelings, I would go a step further and say I have experienced some animals that seem to have a distinct personality above just instinctual actions (as many pet owners would agree with). But the counter-argument being that personality can be heavily influenced by the pet's owner to begin with (nature vs nurture, etc). For example an abused dog can have a complete personality transformation, if it's later cared for correctly. But then this is also true in human behavior to a lesser extent.

I go back and forth on this quite a lot and as you mentioned DTR1975, I don't really expect to find a definite answer on this mortal plane. I suppose I'm looking to narrow down the grey areas in my mind a little and to ultimately decide if I have enough to form a belief. The animal sentient / autonomy thing is a problem - when it comes to accountability for actions etc it becomes complex as we start to get into how many degrees of separation excuse us from an action (as our modern society allows when it comes to animal cruelty for the purpose of food) and if the ends (such as I need food for sustenance) justify the means and to what extent. And to how much higher should human life be regarded VS other life (would it be justified to extinct an entire species to save the life of one man, for example).

For me, it would be wonderful if information provided by the NDE witnesses could help with some of the hardest moral disagreements we have on earth. I think the animal and the abortion discussions rank quite highly on that list which is why I am particularly interested in this question.

Thanks!

[ADMINDiane]

A very warm welcome to you NDERFUSER! We are happy you have joined us I can tell you from my own personal Spiritual experiences and as a lifelong Dog lover, that Animals' Souls DO indeed transition back "Home" the very same way that Human Souls do. I have interacted with my own Doggies' Spirits after they have crossed over. The subject of Vegetarianism is very interesting. I have been a Vegetarian / borderline Vegan for decades. This was not an actual decision but more a natural process for me. One day I simply developed a great distaste for meat. This then quickly progressed to Poultry and eventually Seafood of which I never consumed a great deal to begin with. As for plants (I am also an avid lifelong gardener and plant lover), someone recently brought that up to me and my reply was yes technically plants are living beings as well, and that this could be a never-ending debate. My personal feeling as a Vegetarian is that I will never consume any living thing that once had a heartbeat and blood running through it's veins. I have existed on Legumes and vegetables for years and I am just fine

[DTR1975]

Part of many plants life cycles includes getting eaten: animals eat the fruit and and then spread the seeds. It doesn't even damage the main plant. So I don't feel lIke we need to feel guilty about using plants, if we are contributing to their lifecycle, i.e. replanting what we use.

[Giulia]

About plant life in the Spirit World, I thought I would quote this passage from Life in the World Unseen by Antony Borgia, a mediumistic account of the earlies experiencers a minister had upon crossing over, when met in the Spirit World by the discarnate spirit of a friend:

[…] He looked at me for a moment, and then he took us to a splendid tree that looked strongly like a plum tree. The fruit was perfect in shape, with a deep rich colouring, and it hung in great clusters. Our host picked some of it, and handed it to us, telling us that it would do us both good. The fruit was quite cool to the touch, and it was remarkably heavy for its size. Its taste was exquisite, the flesh was soft without being difficult or unpleasant to handle, and a quantity of nectar-like juice poured out. My two friends watched me closely as I ate the plums, each bearing upon his face an expression of mirthful anticipation. As the juice of the fruit streamed out, I fully expected to spill an abundance of it upon my clothes. To my amazement, although the juice descended upon me I could find. upon examination, no traces of it! My friends laughed uproariously at my astonishment, and I thoroughly enjoyed the joke, but I was much mystified. They hastened to explain to me that as I am now in an incorruptible world anything that is ‘unwanted’ immediately returns to its own element. The fruit juice that I thought I had spilled upon myself had returned to the tree from which the fruit was picked.

Our host informed me that the particular type of plum which I had just eaten was one thought I had spilled upon myself had returned to the tree from which the fruit warn plucked that he always recommends to people who have but newly arrived in spirit. It helps to restore the spirit, especially if the passing has been caused by illness. He observed, however, that I did not present the appearance of having had a long illness, and he gathered that my passing had been fairly sudden—which was quite true. I had had only a very short illness. The various fruits that were growing were not only for those who needed some form of treatment after their physical death, but all enjoyed eating thereof for its stimulating effect. He hoped that, if I had no fruit trees of my own—or even if I had!—I should come as often as I liked and help myself. ‘The fruit is always in season,’ he added, in great amusement, ‘and you will never find any of the trees without plenty of fruit upon them. ’ In response to my question as to how they grow, he replied that like so many other questions in this land, the answer was only possible from those of the higher realms, and even if we were told that answer, there is more than a strong probability that we should not understand until such time as we, ourselves, went to dwell in those realms. We are quite content, he said in effect, to take so many things just as they are, without inquiring into how they come about, and we know that those things provide a never-failing supply because they come from a never-failing Source.

There is no real need to delve into such matters, and most of us are quite content to enjoy them with heartfelt thanks. As to the actual supply of fruit, our host said that all he knew was that as he picked his fruit other fruit came and took its place. It never over-ripened because it was perfect fruit, and, like ourselves, imperishable. He invited us to walk through the orchard where I saw every kind of fruit known to man, and many that were known only in spirit. I sampled some of the latter, but it is impossible to give any indication of the delicious flavour of them because there is no earthly fruit that I know of with which comparison can be made. We can only, at any time, give such an indication to the senses by comparison with that which we have already experienced. If we have not had that experience then we are at a complete and absolute loss to convey any new sensation, and nowhere is this more appreciable than in the sense of taste.

I also thought I might quote from the near-death experience account of Bettie Eadie as described in her book Embraced by the Light:

[…]As I approached the water, I noticed a rose near me that seemed to stand out from the other flowers, and I stopped to examine it. Its beauty was breathtaking. Among all the flowers there, none captured me like this one. It was gently swaying to faint music, and singing praises to the Lord with sweet tones of its own. I realized that I could actually see it growing. As it developed before my eyes, my spirit was moved, and I wanted to experience its life, to step into it and feel its spirit. As this thought came to me, I seemed to be able to see down into it. It was as though my vision had become microscopic and allowed me to penetrate the rose's deepest parts. But it was much more than a visual experience. I felt the rose's presence around me, as if I were actually inside and part of the flower. I experienced it as if I were the flower. I felt the rose swaying to the music of all the other flowers, and I felt it creating its own music, a melody that perfectly harmonized with the thousands of other roses joining it. I understood that the music in my flower came from its individual parts, that its petals produced their own tones, and that each intelligence within that petal was adding to its perfect notes, each working harmoniously for the overall effect—which was joy. My joy was absolutely full again! I felt God in the plant, in me, his love pouring into us. We were all one! I will never forget the rose that I was. That one experience, just a glimmer of the grander joy that is available in the spirit world, in being one with everything else, was so great that I will cherish it forever.

[NDERFUSER]

Thanks again for the responses!

The text shared by Giulia is very beautiful. The plant world is fascinating and mysterious (including mycology). I feel there's a lot we still don't know especially when it comes to the capacity to communicate. For example the largest living organism on earth is a mycelial mass (essentially a mushroom) that spans 2200 acres under Oregon. According to expert Paul Stamets, the organism has survived this long due to it's ability to communicate with the ecosystem allowing it to adapt and (as Paul puts it) "form alliances and guilds" within that ecosystem to allow it to fend off predators (and adapt to new threats) which is why it was able to continue for so long. So obviously a form of intelligence (albeit very different in nature than our own). The internal conflict for me when mentioning the plant world is more on the collective level than the individual eating of a plant for food (which as DTR1975 pointed out is a normal part of the cycle). I just feel there's a wide grey area there when we ask "what is intelligence", "what is consciousness", "what is a spirit/soul", are there hard lines in the sand or is there some kind of gradient to the fabric of creation (I do need to find a way to explain this better, apologies).

@ADMINDiane : From your experience / research, do you get the feeling that the dog spirit is fundamentally different from our own (in other words assuming re-incarnation, the dog will always be a dog)? I share a similar path when it comes to vegetarianism - I refuse to label myself (although other people sometimes call me a vegetarian because most of the times I choose to avoid meat). That being said, my health has been bad in recent times. There are occasions where I feel called to eat meat. Moralistically I have a problem with many farming processes, the conflict for me isn't the same if I was to go fishing or hunting and eat something that had lived wild for it's life. I tend to feel that if you aren't at a place where you could kill it yourself (you would be able to, if hungry enough) there's something not quite right about it... for example (to bring this back to NDE's) are abattoir workers racking up some huge post-life receipt on behalf of all the animals they caged then processed to feed other people? Or the other side, assuming you are not a psychopath - that's a hard job that will quickly build up mental trauma, to what degree are the consumers of the meat product responsible for systemic suffering that has occurred up until that point in either the worker or the animal?

If this sort of dilemma isn't represented at all in NDE experiences, the natural conclusion I would draw if that it's not important unless it was directly experienced by us via our senses (which could be an important tell on the nature of reality, in my mind it adds weight to the theory that this is more like a simulation than base reality).

If for example, we could say that the universe is internal (or a simulation), and a product of our own imagination and this includes all the fauna and fauna (so in other words all the animals are a product of our imagination and the afterlife experience of meeting our pets again would be more like a projection). This would make it incredibly convenient to morally handwave a lot of problems away, which could be useful for freeing up mental capacity for other things, if they are truly not important...